vMC Philosophy: Utility vs Aesthetic?

[SterlingRed]

Bafta Games hosted a Q&A session with Notch on twitter today. One questions answer surprised me. (sorry for no source links, can't do it from my phone. I'll add latter). The question was asked what did Notch least like/most regret about minecraft. His answer? Half blocks. He regrets them as they 'take away from the pureness of minecraft.' He also stated he dislikes them because he favors 'utility' features.

This honestly surprised me, as vMC doesn't really reflect that utility over aesthetic philosopy at all. I'm curious to start some discussion on this subject and see what you all think.
What do you think Notch's design philosophy was? What is Jebs? Where is vMC headed? Where would you like it to go? Should Mojang provide the aesthtics and raw materials and leave tech trees up to mods? Or should Mojang develop their current 'tech tree' further?

Note: By no means is this a 'Notch is so crappy' discussion. Please keep those thoughts to yourself so we can have a good discussion about vMC game design. Like me, many of you may think Mojang is wasting the potential of the game, but lets give them a little credit for creating this epic sandbox.

[Stormweaver]

huh. Half slabs are not utility blocks? That really is news to me; most of the time when I use them it's because I need to utilize the unique properties of half slabs, not because they 'look nice'.

Anyways, for people who might want to look at the whole thing, go here: http://twitter.com/#!/BaftaNotch

[Katalliaan]

I feel that Notch's design philosphy started out as "what will be a cool addition to the game", but slowly drifted towards "what will shut up the kids on the MCF". I think that Jeb's started out more like "what will shut Notch up" and is shifting more towards "what would be a good addition to the game", mixed with a bit of "what do my Twitter followers think".

It seems to me that vMC is becoming less of a sandbox and more of a RPG, with the addition of the structures and the End. I think they'd be better off providing a strong framework for players and modders to use. Look at the wide variety of playstyles that exist currently in vMC - you've got the people who do their best to automate everything (Etho), people who create massive builds (FyreUK), people who make challenge maps (Vechs), etc.

If an addition can give multiple groups something new to use or a new challenge to attack, while still feeling like it belongs, I can't see why they shouldn't add it.

[SterlingRed]

huh. Half slabs are not utility blocks? That really is news to me; most of the time when I use them it's because I need to utilize the unique properties of half slabs, not because they 'look nice'.

Anyways, for people who might want to look at the whole thing, go here:

Thanks for adding the link! I agree with you,i use half blocks for their properties more than I do for aesthetics. Of course most of that functionality is with btw, but in vMC I use them as an easy way to push wolves up a few steps instead of relying on them to jump where I want. Half slabs are also great for stopping water flows without blocking line of sight.

@Above, agreed vMC does seem more RPG as of late, however I recall Notch or Jeb saying some time ago that they wanted to focus on giving players a reason to explore. There's no point in infinite terrain after all if there's no reason to leave a 200x200 area. This does make sense, and now that strongholds, larger biomes, villages and such have been added, I'd like to see the focus shift back to the sandbox aspect of the game.

Edit: fixed quote.

[TheAnarchitect]

You know what would be cool then? Make certain types of biomes only generate X chunks away from spawn.

[FlowerChild]

huh. Half slabs are not utility blocks? That really is news to me; most of the time when I use them it's because I need to utilize the unique properties of half slabs, not because they 'look nice'.

I don't think a lot of those properties were intentional.

I can see what he's saying. The 1 meter block is basically the resolution that Minecraft operates in, and by creating the slab, he opened up a can of worms with regards to where that would end.

Ultimately, a certain unit will have to be considered "enough", whether that is the 1 meter cube, or an eighth of that, or whatever. It was a departure from the purity of the design in that context, but one I never really noticed as I started playing after their inclusion in the game.

[FlowerChild]

Hehe...oddly, I wrote the above before reading the interview. Now that I have, I'm certain that's exactly what he means :)

I feel that Notch's design philosphy started out as "what will be a cool addition to the game", but slowly drifted towards "what will shut up the kids on the MCF". I think that Jeb's started out more like "what will shut Notch up" and is shifting more towards "what would be a good addition to the game", mixed with a bit of "what do my Twitter followers think".

Personally, I think Jeb is actually much more oriented towards popular demand than Notch was. He's said as much himself in the past.

I'm really not confident in the direction he's taking Minecraft in, but we'll see.

[steveman0]

Personally, I think Jeb is actually much more oriented towards popular demand than Notch was. He's said as much himself in the past.

I'm really not confident in the direction he's taking Minecraft in, but we'll see.

How many people were more comfortable with Notch in charge? It appears at least the Jeb has an idea of what he wants to do and where he wants to go with it as indicated by this interview, the introduction of the Bukit team, and the plans for the API. I think things are pretty stable right now. I expect the real turning point isn't likely to come until after the API and multiplayer rewrite are done as there will be a lot more to compete with then.

[FlowerChild]

How many people were more comfortable with Notch in charge?

<raises hand>

[SterlingRed]

How many people were more comfortable with Notch in charge?

<raises hand>

I'm split on that. On one hand I could count on Notch taking the game in a direction I liked and not giving into the mcf masses. I could also count on half developed/implemented features, frequently abandoned features, absurd numbers of bugs, and random silly features added by Notch on a whim.
On the other hand I can count on Jeb bringing a slightly higher quality to the game (bug fixes), more fully developed features (nether, strongholds, villages). But I can also count on him giving into the masses, and creating a game for the public rather than a game he himself would enjoy playing (which was Notch's intent with minecraft).

I think Mojang would greatly benefit by creating a year long development plan for the game and getting feedback on it from the intelligent community of players.

FC's interpretation of the half blocks actually does make sense, and I have to say I agree now. But half blocks are a nice feature and making the resolution at 1 meter, and leaving it that way, did make travel and easy movement choppy due to all the jumping. Half blocks provide a nice transition.

[DaveYanakov]

Name one game that would not benefit from the production team sitting down for a week or three and making a plan that they then hold to through the development cycle.

[RaustBlackDragon]

Name one game that would not benefit from the production team sitting down for a week or three and making a plan that they then hold to through the development cycle.

Oh I'm sure such a system has its drawbacks somewhere along the line. Having to operate on past decisions in spite of new knowledge has a lot of potential pitfalls. but it does sound like it has a lot of advantages as well.

[SterlingRed]

Name one game that would not benefit from the production team sitting down for a week or three and making a plan that they then hold to through the development cycle.

Oh I'm sure such a system has its drawbacks somewhere along the line. Having to operate on past decisions in spite of new knowledge has a lot of potential pitfalls. but it does sound like it has a lot of advantages as well.

I wouldn't say they need to plan every feature for the next how ever many months. But I think the game and community would greatly benefit from them choosing a direction for the game. They need to decide if they want to develop survival primarily as rpg, or as sandbox. Or decide on some balance in between to use as a guide for future feature decisions. Or should rpg be created as it's own game mode and world type separate from survival? These are the kinds of things Mojang needs to figure out in order to have a solid development path players can understand and rally behind as well as create interest in the games future to turn more of those 20 million players over into paying players. Sustainable development with creative flexibility as opposed to flying by the seat of your pants until they crash and burn.

[Zhil]

Name one game that would not benefit from the production team sitting down for a week or three and making a plan that they then hold to through the development cycle.

Every one of them? Time has proven again and again and again that the waterfall model doesn't work. It leads to rigid designs, stilted creativity and more bugs.

In fact, by not doing it that way, Notch was able to release Minecraft so early that he's now stinking filthy rich from one game. Compare that to the rest of the industry that does still largely use the waterfall model.

If anything, we should get as far away from planning everything ahead as we can. Nintendo is famous for not planning out anything early on. Here's how they work:

- Create a VERY simple prototype thingy that is FUN
- If it's FUN, sit down, discuss some small additions. If it's not fun, scrap the entire thing
- Repeat 1

After it has become a decent game, you start adding flavor, theme, story, etc.

TL;DR: Designing up-front is a proven recipe for disaster

[TuSlayer]

Ok sorry.. Please Delete

[TheAnarchitect]

Frankly, because we already have a shit-ton of RPG titles. And no matter what they add to minecraft, it will never be as good an RPG as Skyrim, or even WoW. What Minceraft has that those other titles don't is the construction aspect, and it's the construction aspect that has attracted users and sold the game. Focusing on adding more RPG elements means ignoring the main selling feature of the game.

I think Notch on his best days knew that. On his worst days, well, wolves. He maintained a pretty good ratio: about 2/5th aesthetic, about 2/5ths functional, and about 1/5th non-core crap. If 1.2 is any indication, Jeb's ratio is more like 1/5th aesthetic, 1/5th function, and about 3/5th non-core crap.

I understand the thinking behind it. "Here is an area of the game that people don't pay a lot of attention to, so lets beef it up so it's more interesting." I used to fall into that thinking as a GM. But the truth is that if your players are ignoring that aspect of the game, you should take the hint and ignore it too.

Back to the original dichotomy, though, I'd rather a focus on utility than on aesthetics. But I'm a hardcore f^3 modernist: Form follows function.

[Zhil]

I think you guys go a bit too far here. I like the enchantment table and potions. They were reasonably well implemented, they added a reason to go to the nether, a reason to build a physical library, a reason to explore and search for rare mob loot, etc.

"OMG, don't turn MC into an RPG". Wasn't it clear from the beginning that that was Notch's idea? He allowed you to play an early version that didn't have RPG elements, told you it was going to be an RPG. You all bought the game, then complained when he finally added those promised elements that half of his user-base had been clamoring for already.

Besides, he's not going to add extra tech stuff when most people don't even understand redstone. Take Battosay (and I for that matter): we both played the game and noticed there was something to redstone, but never fully understood/used it. It's cool that a mod maker like FlowerChild was able to allow us to discover that part of the game, but I can assure you that most of the heavy tech content would not be well received by users unable to use it. Or, at the very least, that's what Jeb and Notch believe, when they notice most of the user-base doesn't even use what IS available. Maybe that's a fallacy, who knows?

What you have, is a game, meant to be an RPG, that got popular before it got to the RPG parts. The game contained a geeky turing complete doodad, that was never meant to be a major feature. Can you blame the game author for sticking to the original game plan?

[TheAnarchitect]

yes?

[steveman0]

"OMG, don't turn MC into an RPG". Wasn't it clear from the beginning that that was Notch's idea? He allowed you to play an early version that didn't have RPG elements, told you it was going to be an RPG. You all bought the game, then complained when he finally added those promised elements that half of his user-base had been clamoring for already.

Well, to be honest I was hoping he'd do a better job with it. The actual RPG elements of the game are completely awful. If combat wasn't dumb, the end such a waste, and the leveling system a little more meaningful then maybe it wouldn't be a problem. The thing is the RPG elements are among the worst I've encountered in gaming in the past decade so naturally I'd rather see a focus on the building aspect because at least that was done right.

[kaos78414]

I find this whole discussion so interesting. I never really thought about all of this as I played vMC. But I think so long as the ability to mod minecraft exists we'll be in good shape. I'll let BTW handle the tech portion of the game, and Jeb can continue to add whatever he adds (read: fluff features).

Anyway, I just hope the ability to mod the game never goes away, as I think that this is where the true strength and longevity of the game lies.

[Poppycocks]

I find this whole discussion so interesting. I never really thought about all of this as I played vMC. But I think so long as the ability to mod minecraft exists we'll be in good shape. I'll let BTW handle the tech portion of the game, and Jeb can continue to add whatever he adds (read: fluff features).

Anyway, I just hope the ability to mod the game never goes away, as I think that this is where the true strength and longevity of the game lies.

Yeah, the TES series games have the same thing going for them, even the Morowind modding community is still existent to some degree.

[SterlingRed]

I find this whole discussion so interesting. I never really thought about all of this as I played vMC. But I think so long as the ability to mod minecraft exists we'll be in good shape. I'll let BTW handle the tech portion of the game, and Jeb can continue to add whatever he adds (read: fluff features).

Anyway, I just hope the ability to mod the game never goes away, as I think that this is where the true strength and longevity of the game lies.

Very much agreed. I see Minecraft as a base product by Mojang, and the real 'game' is whatever mods each person decides to install. I think Mojang at least knows how critical mods are to the games success and its encouraging to see them publicly talking about the api.

[TuSlayer]

Ok sorry.. Please Delete

[FlowerChild]

Frankly I find vMC lacking in both Utility and Aesthetics. But there are a lot of mods that work to address the Utility issue.

So given vMC's sandbox world sculpting focus, Aesthetics then seem to be its main weakness. Most of the epic maps you can see online are of some behemoth mega complex/structure. And they really look cool... until you walk inside of them.

I'd be happy with simply being able to make the home I craft feel homely. There is only so much wool can do....
And the functionality Optifine provides should really be standard. :|

So on a vote of "Is vMC Philosophy that of Utility or Aesthetic?" I'd vote Neither.

You've made two posts to the forum, neither introductory, and both of them rather negative. I'm personally making a tick in the "goon" column, and I'd ask you to take some time to get to know the community better, and perhaps let us get to know you before posting anything similar.

[SterlingRed]

It recently occurred to me that I miss Notch's humor in the release logs. I thoroughly enjoyed the chaos that ensued on the mc forums after the first time he put "Added herobrine" in the release notes.