Better Than Wolves Forum

Hehe...oddly, this just came out of an MCF discussion, but after 25 years of doing it, I just realized I don't much care for programming.

I'm kinda stunned by this but thinking back over my past, I'm realizing that in situations where I tried to force myself to code something where I wasn't passionate about the end result, I basically lacked all motivation.

It's the first time I've really put my finger on it and realized that I am not a programmer by nature. It's just a tool I use to get the job done, and that "job" has always been the creation of games for me. I think back even to my early childhood when I was making crude pinball machines out of cardboard, and how it had nothing to do with enjoying working with cardboard, and how I seem to have forgotten that somewhere along the way. It also explains my strong aversion for ever working in anything even vaguely related to "business programming". Heck, I couldn't even really handle working on tools for a game-development project without becoming miserable.

I'm also realizing that a lot of my own personal design philosophy orients itself around avoiding programming as much as possible, because I'd really just prefer not to do it if I don't have to. I think this is directly related to my obsession with "bang for the buck", which is not only extremely practical in terms of getting things done, but which may also represent my own desire to avoid programming if I can get something just as fun as a result.

Anyways, just thought I'd share something that it has taken me a very long time to fully realize about myself. I think this may be a rather fundamental difference between me and other modders/game developers that I've worked with over the years. Code in and of itself just really doesn't excite me.

I'm not terribly surprised. I have actually known very few programmers who truly enjoyed programming - at least not more than the act of creation. From what I have heard from you in the past, I wouldn't have guessed you liked it.

Well, I guess it might be rather more obvious from an external perspective. It's been something I've been doing so long though, and from such an early age, that I guess I never really questioned it or the reasons why I was doing it in the first place.

Anyways, I've mentioned before that working on this mod has been an eye-opening experience for me in reminding me of the things I'm really passionate about in life. I guess that this is just part of that process.

FlowerChild wrote:Anyways, I've mentioned before that working on this mod has been an eye-opening experience for me in reminding me of the things I'm really passionate about in life. I guess that this is just part of that process.

I think this is a good thing for you, and I am glad. <3

morvelaira wrote: I think this is a good thing for you, and I am glad. <3

Thanks, and yeah it is. I definitely lost myself in the last few years of my career in the game industry, and lost total sight of what it is that I enjoyed in life.

Now that I've figured out what that is again, I just need to figure out how to turn it into a profitable pursuit again without selling my soul in the process ;)

I look back on some of my own actions now and am kinda shaking my head in disbelief. I was really behaving like a total whore, and it's no wonder I wound up miserable.

Well, if you have a plan somewhere along the lines, you have support staff here. I have experience in test, project management, and accounting. As I head down the path towards housewife, I have increasing amounts of time, too. :)

morvelaira wrote:Well, if you have a plan somewhere along the lines, you have support staff here. I have experience in test, project management, and accounting. As I head down the path towards housewife, I have increasing amounts of time, too. :)

You know, I once worked for a virtual office, and it was honestly the best job I ever had. The idea might not be incredibly far-fetched.

The trick is to have the kind of people that are capable of self-motivating in that kind of environment. I'd say maybe only a quarter of people we interviewed and hired were actually capable of dealing with it in the long term. Personally, it was the kind of environment in which I thrived, as I've always been the self-motivating type, and honestly hate feeling like I have people looking over my shoulder all the time. I find when I'm able to work my own schedule I'm at my most productive.

I'm happy for your FC, it's always good to realize such things in life and being able to get back on track. :)

Programming has never been something I enjoyed either. I've always been good with computers, and as such my educational career moved from basic IT support to IT management. In my 2nd Uni they wanted me to code again, which just made me cringe. I actually quit that Uni as well, after realizing that managing is not something that interested me as much as it did before. I like taking responsibilities and work on me, but I prefer to actually do some of the work and not just delegating it to others. :P

That decision brought me around some amazing careers though, and I can happily say that it was the best decision so far as I have enjoyed pretty much every moment of my careers after that and brought me where I am today =). (read: never had to code)

To be honest, I don't see how ANYONE could like programming. As you said, it's just a means to an end. Do you know anybody who enjoys the actual physical act of talking? Or the act of writing? I don't. I do know a lot of people who enjoy the results though.

my initial thoughts upon reading that... you're a born engineer man... sorry, i know that's very improper of me to declare, especially before i congratulate you on these most recent endeavors into self awareness. congrats! it's always good to know more about yourself :)

you seriously do remind me of the stereotype my last university was attempting to attach to engineers though. this uni is up there amongst the world leaders in the engineering field, and part of the thing they preached during introduction units was the true theory that engineering as a profession is neither recognized nor encouraged comparatively to it's place of importance in almost all endeavors. you need engineers for for almost anything and everything, yet the closest thing to a heroic engineer in society is Dr Who, who is obviously a bad representative. The vast majority of other representations of engineers in modern culture are bumbling fools. scotty the alcoholic scottish engineer from star trek who could never handle catastrophe's without his captains direction being the prime, and regularly imitated, example (the engines just can't handle it... oh, aye captain, redirecting power from weapons sir). the point of this rant being that you probably never aspired to be an engineer.

but you create (bridges/mods), by using tested practices and tools (science/programming), based upon a framework (physics/minecraft), thanks to capital (money/your time). when i studied it, i really loved learning engineering. i wanna go back and finish it, but first life must be dealt with. and so all i'm getting at is that maybe you should consider it. it sounds like your heart is in creating the best product, given the tools and available knowledge, and that's essentially what engineering is all about :)

as they put it when they taught me: science provides knowledge, but engineering turns it into technology.

anyway, the most important thing is that you don't start to hate programming. so please, take a break. BTW on 1.2.3 is kickass... take the two month break that is available before the official API comes out and if you get itchy to do something, that's when you think about BTB or anything outside of bugfixes. from what i'm reading, it seems likely that in the future even single player games will run off a server jar, or perhaps i'm mis-interpretting the promises of increased multiplayer functionality. regardless, please don't burn out before the biggest challenge... eep, now i'm hoping i'm not scaring you XD

PS: raust, i really enjoy writing (if i didn't just make that obvious XD) and it's not necessarily just because i also like my opinions... i also like it in the way that some people can mindlessly enjoy programming, or accounting, or western legal systems. better stop before this turns political. but writing can be awesome! very therapeutic. and most politicians i know certainly love to hear themselves talk. eep... too late!! press enter... i mean escape! TOO LATE AGAIN! XD

RaustBlackDragon wrote:To be honest, I don't see how ANYONE could like programming. As you said, it's just a means to an end. Do you know anybody who enjoys the actual physical act of talking? Or the act of writing? I don't. I do know a lot of people who enjoy the results though.

My brother enjoys programming. He actually truly enjoys it. I don't understand it but he does. I enjoy writing with a pen. I enjoy the feel of it. so while we may be exceptions there are certainly people who enjoy the act of doing something that most people see as only a means to an end.

Gargantuan_Penguin wrote:

RaustBlackDragon wrote:To be honest, I don't see how ANYONE could like programming. As you said, it's just a means to an end. Do you know anybody who enjoys the actual physical act of talking? Or the act of writing? I don't. I do know a lot of people who enjoy the results though.

My brother enjoys programming. He actually truly enjoys it. I don't understand it but he does. I enjoy writing with a pen. I enjoy the feel of it. so while we may be exceptions there are certainly people who enjoy the act of doing something that most people see as only a means to an end.

It appears I have made a hasty generalization that is not at all true for everybody. Shame on me :(

I apologize.

I have to agree Flowerchild. I was a computer science major when I started university and I rapidly began to dread the programming courses. The projects were pointless and had no particular goal or purpose other than proving that I could write programs.

I wound up leaving the computer science department and I finished university with a geography/spatial information systems degree which has served me very well. I'm certainly a lot more excited by the work in this field and the programming knowledge comes in handy from time to time as well but I'm using programming to help my job rather than being my job.

I find programming a lot more enjoyable in that context.

RaustBlackDragon wrote: It appears I have made a hasty generalization that is not at all true for everybody. Shame on me :(

I apologize.

heh. it's no biggy. most generalizations, even well thought through and well informed ones aren't true for everyone.

@Battlecat I have found that a lot of people are capable of programming, but only a few enjoy it for the sake of doing it. using programming as a tool is what most people do. some people just really enjoy using that particular tool.

This really relates to a lot of things. You may want a certain goal but getting there may require doing something that you don't enjoy, however you still do it. I notice this In my Product design course I do, a lot of people only do it instead of graphical design because they like to see the end product for real, even if they don't like the making part.

For me, code is the brush with which I create my "art." I have no artistic talent, but programming allows me to express myself creatively. While I'm not in your shoes, FC, I do many times, enjoy the act of writing code, I also believe that well written code can be an expression in and of itself.

I believe you are the complete opposite of notch in this way: notch enjoys creating minecraft "for the players" and because he finds coding/programming (whichever term suits you) fun. You, on the other hand, create your mod for yourself and for a small group dedicated to your mod, and hence update more often and add more content which is "good" and not just "popular". Plus, of course, you don't like coding for no purpose other than to prove you know how to do a certain thing.

badmojo98 wrote:anyway, the most important thing is that you don't start to hate programming. so please, take a break. BTW on 1.2.3 is kickass... take the two month break that is available before the official API comes out and if you get itchy to do something, that's when you think about BTB or anything outside of bugfixes. from what i'm reading, it seems likely that in the future even single player games will run off a server jar, or perhaps i'm mis-interpretting the promises of increased multiplayer functionality. regardless, please don't burn out before the biggest challenge... eep, now i'm hoping i'm not scaring you XD

Yeah, I think you may have misunderstood. I don't feel I need a break, this is more just a personal realization about why I do what I do.

itamarcu wrote:I believe you are the complete opposite of notch in this way: notch enjoys creating minecraft "for the players" and because he finds coding/programming (whichever term suits you) fun. You, on the other hand, create your mod for yourself and for a small group dedicated to your mod, and hence update more often and add more content which is "good" and not just "popular". Plus, of course, you don't like coding for no purpose other than to prove you know how to do a certain thing.

Yeah, I agree with you there. I think Notch is primarily a programmer, and I could name several modders that I would say are primarily programmers as well. I think it comes across largely in the types of features that they do, where what is accomplished is the end goal, with how it fits into the rest of the game being a distant secondary consideration. They're cool features, but they aren't necessarily good game features with the end result seeming to orient more around "look what I did!" rather than making something playable.

Also, you'll see many modders undertake these huge ambitious features that take them an insane amount of work to pull-off, and which seem to exist solely for the programming challenge provided, whereas I really have no use for that kind of thing, and generally get pissed off at myself if I mistakingly implement something that I find isn't worth the effort in terms of the fun it provides in the end.

Well, you kinda summed up my own feelings towards programming. It's all fun when you are learning and fooling around, but when you actually have to do something beyond what you personally find interesting, it all devolves into mind numbing tedium alarmingly fast.

Sad thing is, the above thing is true for almost everything in my life. Which is why I find it extremely hard to make the commitment a serious job requires, and I prefer doing the odd one here and there and being basically broke most of the time.

I started out programming when I was about 12 so I was lucky enough to discover this about myself before I really turned it into a career. I'm an engineer myself which leads me to the same 'bang for the buck' approach to problem solving. I still end up programming a fair amount for simulations and such but that is usually secondary to what I'd prefer to do or how I'd like to approach problems. I think programming comes across as a powerful tool that many minds flock to for its applications but few of them are so accustomed to the method to actually like doing it long term. It's all just a means to an end for most.

Sometimes I enjoy programming but mostly no, I made the same realisation when I spent 2 month working on a feature for one of my mods
and that is one of the reasons most of my mods I don't release

There's a lot in this thread that really resonates with me as well. I'm an enterprise web application programmer. I hate programming, but I love the end result. The rush you get when something finally works, and people use what you've created and they love it, that's what I like. Endless droning lines of getters/setters, constant type checking, layout bugs, frameworks... ugh, I could really, really go without them. But the job is too sweet (work from home, great culture) and the pay is too high to simply just walk away from. I realized years ago that I'm not a programmer at heart, and I know this because I work with real programmers, the kind of people who live it and breathe it and spend their free time poring over blog posts and new frameworks and bicker over which language is greater and which phone app you can't live without. Drives me nuts.

However.

Programming is quite possibly the fastest way I've tried of taking some idea in your head and creating it. The flexibility and rapidity inherent in it is what makes it unconsciously attractive to tech-minded creatives. It lacks the unpredictability of real-world physics (think of the myriad problems working on a real world vehicle engine, for instance), promotes rapid iterative creation by lowering the penalty of failure, and has an extraordinarily low resource barrier to entry: if you want to learn to program, you literally need a $300 computer and an internet connection. That's it. You probably already have everything you need to do it, even if you've never considered it before. Those are some massive strengths, and the more I sit and think about it, and the more I consider what you can do with it (I'm beginning to look more at device programming and game development now), the more I grudgingly stick with it. Not because of the act of programming, but at what it potentially and easily will allow me to create. It's a total ends-justifies-the-means scenario for me, and its certainly refreshing to see a programmer I greatly respect feel the same way about it.

tl;dr: It feels good to know you're not alone.

Well no that I am finally over the Flu and feeling a lot better "I can finally get to the DF succession game", but I have to comment on this topic first.

Your statement is in a way, exactly how I have come to understand you. You are in my understanding more of a game designer then a game programmer, Opposite of notch in fact. It's nice to know actually and this isn't meant to be taking as a sort of condescending opinion, opposite in fact is that I consider you to be a long the lines of what I consider to be the best kind of game designer. I never have to worry about questioning what you plan to do with the mod, I know for a fact that whatever it is you put in is something I will enjoy regardless of it's intended effect. You consider what your going to do before you decide to do anything with it which is great.

I am really am glad to have found this mod and you I really enjoy being around here :). It is nice to know that you made a realization about something that made you happy, or at least help's you understand yourself better. In regards to taking this self realization into a profitable future? I think you would do far better as a project manager for a development team, Your much more of a leader then you probably think, and I for one am willing to stand behind you and see where you end up at.

Well I think I have steered myself far enough off what I was original going to say, so ya um.... congrats? none the less, I am truly looking forward to more things to come from you :) that's really all I wanted to say. I would wish you luck, but you really don't need it lol :)

Thanks man. I've actually done project management in the past, and don't much care for it as it take me away from the creative aspect of making games. The role I've found myself most comfortable in professionally was that of a lead game designer, where I had a good producer to worry about the management side of things.

The good producer part is key though (and I've only ever really worked with one) as I've been thoroughly miserable when I've worked as a lead designer with a bad one. That kind of situation tends to turn into a constant power struggle that just isn't conducive to doing anything worthwhile.

Actually, one of the reasons I tend to get so upset about bad suggestions is that tends to be rather symptomatic of working with a bad producer. If you happen to get a guy that thinks he is a game designer (which almost everyone does at some level), and constantly tries to muck about with the design side of things as a result, a project can quickly turn into a living hell.

Thus, I've spent a large portion of my career trying to fend off bad ideas from people that had more power than me within a corporate hierarchy in order to try and preserve the integrity (and fun) of game designs I've been involved with. I realize that I've developed a very defensive reaction towards bad-ideas as a result of this, as I have a history of not just being able to say no to them, but rather having to get into prolonged struggles to keep them away from my games. Thus, I start getting angry and ready for a fight soon as I see them, which is a reaction I've had a hell of a time trying to ween myself off of.

One of the most successful game designers I knew was also actually a student of neuro-linguistic programming. He had a remarkable talent for defusing bad ideas thrown his way with a simple phrase that would leave the originator laughing at their own stupidity. It was a trick I never did quite pickup :)

Same as everone above really. I am a business analyst because I like the design aspect, but have next to no interest in the actually coding.

Also my Mum is an NLP trainer. I went on a course and I have to say it was better than I expected. More about how to effectively communicate with others than anything else.