Space Engineers - Hardcore Mode

[Gilberreke]

Homepage

There's a Reddit thread here that has some cool discussion going on (if you get past the idiots):
http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceengineers/ ... an_enough/

My Space Engineers mod :). Everything is explained on that web page. I'm still playtesting the game, but felt like already releasing what I had, so you're playing a beta. Sorry if anything is not up to par. Here's my thoughts so far:

The wrecked levels do exactly what I'd hoped. It's almost a puzzle game trying to figure out what to grind and what to build. Makes for a very fun early game, very different from anything else in the game, nicely separating early game from the rest.

v0.2 fixed a major miscalculation on my side and power generation should be pretty tight right now, but I specifically need input on that. So if you get up to refinery stage and small battery ships, let me know how you're doing in terms of power gen.

[FlowerChild]

Just a couple of small observations based on playing around a bit on the Sparse Hardcore map:

-The cockpit on your ship is really not evident due to being buried in armor blocks. I actually died on my first pass due to running out of energy and thinking that getting the med-bay up and running was required to progress. Only my second time through when I decided to try building a cockpit first instead, did I realize that what I thought was a door towards the front of the ship was actually a cockpit :)

-Might be worth noting that it really doesn't look like the mod (at least on that map...not sure about the others) is suitable to playing with meteors on. I can't really see it being feasible to get your ship behind an asteroid before you start getting randomly pelted, and given the heavier dependency on solar panels, it doesn't seem to me that it would be feasible in the long term anyways.

Anyways, just wanted to give it a quick whirl to see what it is like. This is definitely up my alley so I will set aside some more time to give it a proper go :)

[Gormador]

In due time, this might make me buy the game.
Nice to see you tackling that project!

[BinoAl]

Can we get a version with them please?

I like the rest of the changes except that one.

So it begins... ;)

[FlowerChild]

So it begins... ;)

Hehe...yeah, I must admit I chuckled when I saw that and thought "welcome to my world Gil" :)

[Gilberreke]

-The cockpit on your ship is really not evident due to being buried in armor blocks. I actually died on my first pass due to running out of energy and thinking that getting the med-bay up and running was required to progress. Only my second time through when I decided to try building a cockpit first instead, did I realize that what I thought was a door towards the front of the ship was actually a cockpit :)

Yeah, I ran into similar issues when I first tackled that wreck. I didn't actually make it myself, as mentioned in the credits. What I really like about it though, is the "locked in a room" style puzzle, a genre of games I have a fondness for. So for now I'm leaning towards leaving it as is, half puzzle, half hardcore start. The original creator obviously has a knack for these kinds of things. Having people facepalm a few times figuring it all out is part of it :)

-Might be worth noting that it really doesn't look like the mod (at least on that map...not sure about the others) is suitable to playing with meteors on. I can't really see it being feasible to get your ship behind an asteroid before you start getting randomly pelted, and given the heavier dependency on solar panels, it doesn't seem to me that it would be feasible in the long term anyways.)

Yeah, I personally don't care for meteors anyway. For some reason they feel too arbitrary. I *think* you can start with them turned off, then turn them on later though, for those that like em. But yeah, the brutal early game + meteors = not fun.

Anyways, just wanted to give it a quick whirl to see what it is like. This is definitely up my alley so I will set aside some more time to give it a proper go :)

Heh, you were definitely the inspiration. I picked this game up, quickly got bored, was reminded of that conversation between you and Dave, so I thought "I can do this, if Flower's not gonna". Hence this monstrosity was born ;). Feel free to be brutal about any design flaws, I'm kinda playing it by ear, this is my first foray into balancing mods.

So it begins... ;)

Yeah, not sure yet how I'm going to handle that debacle, we'll see :). For now I'm going with completely ignore.

welcome to my world Gil

You mean

[Gilberreke]

Release post!

v0.3 fixes the issue with non-craftables being craftable :)

EDIT: after testing for a bit, I might switch the recommended mode to Super Hardcore eventually. I have a tester on Reddit doing a run right now :)

[Sarudak]

Would this be fun at all for someone who's played the game less than an hour? :P

[Gilberreke]

Would this be fun at all for someone who's played the game less than an hour? :P

Heh, shouldn't be too hard of a learning curve. I don't advise you to go Super Hardcore though :p

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, I personally don't care for meteors anyway. For some reason they feel too arbitrary. I *think* you can start with them turned off, then turn them on later though, for those that like em. But yeah, the brutal early game + meteors = not fun.

Yup, I don't like the current implementation of meteors either, and usually don't play with them. However, given it's a hardcore mod, and without any other instructions, I assumed I'd just turn everything on at start and see how it went.

I might suggest "recommended settings" or something as a result. If meteors aren't part of your vision, then no reason not to say so :)

[Gilberreke]

Yup, I don't like the current implementation of meteors either, and usually don't play with them. However, given it's a hardcore mod, and without any other instructions, I assumed I'd just turn everything on at start and see how it went.

I might suggest "recommended settings" or something as a result. If meteors aren't part of your vision, then no reason not to say so :)

Yeah, there's a few recommended settings spread around the readme, I need to make that more clear. If you turn cargo ships off and meteors on, you won't get much out of this mod.

I'm currently watching Katalliaan play while I'm getting reports from a Redditor doing Super Hardcore. The main issue seems to be that capturing enemy ships is super easy. Catch one and the whole tech tree starts going out of the window soon. I'm trying to figure out how to counter-balance that. All I'm coming up with so far is that I'll need to reduce spawn rate for starters.

I'm also trying to figure out if I can make some Minecraft style tech tree based on combining resources, in a way that I can control the pace of the game more, maybe even making automation a must.

On the positive side, both Katalliaan and the Redditor are pretty experienced and they can easily run the early game, both on Sparse and on Super. Tiny issue with Super is that you can't really make a fast ship, so it takes ages to get to the asteroids.

[FlowerChild]

Sorry, was in a bit of a rush with previous message, so didn't cover everything I wanted to:

Yeah, I ran into similar issues when I first tackled that wreck. I didn't actually make it myself, as mentioned in the credits. What I really like about it though, is the "locked in a room" style puzzle, a genre of games I have a fondness for. So for now I'm leaning towards leaving it as is, half puzzle, half hardcore start. The original creator obviously has a knack for these kinds of things. Having people facepalm a few times figuring it all out is part of it :)

Yeah, I'm cool with the puzzle element, but I find the cockpit the kind of "deus ex" one that slaps you in the face with it once you figure it out. It's not really a logical puzzle as much as it's a "Where's Waldo?" that someone very obviously put in there rather than feeling like part of the environment.

Personally, not the kind of thing that I dig. When I figured it out, it was more of an eye-roll moment for me rather than a "damn...why didn't I think of that?".

For example, I think if crucial components were completely buried beneath armor blocks, you probably wouldn't consider that legit gameplay. Personally, I feel the way it is now lays somewhere between that extreme example and legit gameplay ;)

Heh, you were definitely the inspiration.

I noticed you mention BTW and BTSM in the Space Engineers forum thread man, and was honestly rather touched by that :)

I picked this game up, quickly got bored, was reminded of that conversation between you and Dave, so I thought "I can do this, if Flower's not gonna". Hence this monstrosity was born ;). Feel free to be brutal about any design flaws, I'm kinda playing it by ear, this is my first foray into balancing mods.

Well, I'll certainly be as brutal as I always tend to be, but I really do think it's awesome you've done this man so please keep that in mind :)

Yeah, there's a few recommended settings spread around the readme, I need to make that more clear. If you turn cargo ships off and meteors on, you won't get much out of this mod.

Is there? Fuck man, I didn't even see that, so yeah, a bullet-point list or something might be very cool :)

Personally, going into something like this as a player, I prefer to have the exact settings and scenario spelled out for me so that I know I'm playing it as intended.

Set aside some time to give this a good play this evening, so I'll be sure to let you know my impressions.

[FlowerChild]

Oh, btw Gil, if you have the time, would you mind giving me a brief rundown of what is and isn't possible with Space Engineers modding? Like, are you able to only modify config file and scenario stuff or do you have some access to the code and to what degree?

I'm pretty clueless about the modding capabilities of this game, so having a vague idea of what can be reasonably accomplished might make my feedback far more relevant.

[Gilberreke]

After seeing some playtesting and doing some of my own, the mod seems mostly stable, aside from maybe some needed balance tweaks. The major overhaul seems to work though.

Currently, I'm thinking I'll have to look into making a bit more of a tech tree, ending with a silly expensive victory monument, so players can at least say "I'll do a Super Hardcore run to victory monument". Setting an arbitrary goal to keep the pace going so to speak.

I'm kinda giving up for now on really making it into a game as there's probably just not enough there for me to work with yet. Just improving the general experience will have to do.

Personally, not the kind of thing that I dig. When I figured it out, it was more of an eye-roll moment for me rather than a "damn...why didn't I think of that?".

Yeah, if I tweak the wreck, I'll edit the nose to be more clear. I think there's at least 3 people that mentioned it so far. That's not a priority though, but it's on my to-do, together with figuring out the rescue ship.

I noticed you mention BTW and BTSM in the Space Engineers forum thread man, and was honestly rather touched by that :)

Heh, I almost gave it a Better Than name or at least something close as a wink, but decided that even though well-meant, Better Than should remain solidly an IP in your possession ;). I'm personally very glad that you like that I made this, as I certainly made it with you, Dave and other similar souls in mind.

Is there? Fuck man, I didn't even see that, so yeah, a bullet-point list or something might be very cool :)

Personally, going into something like this as a player, I prefer to have the exact settings and scenario spelled out for me so that I know I'm playing it as intended.

Set aside some time to give this a good play this evening, so I'll be sure to let you know my impressions.

Yeah, I'm thinking the readme needs a clear guide on settings and a small "Getting Started" hint book.

[Gilberreke]

Oh, btw Gil, if you have the time, would you mind giving me a brief rundown of what is and isn't possible with Space Engineers modding? Like, are you able to only modify config file and scenario stuff or do you have some access to the code and to what degree?

I'm pretty clueless about the modding capabilities of this game, so having a vague idea of what can be reasonably accomplished might make my feedback far more relevant.

It's not very clear to me yet what's possible. A large part of the game resides in XML documents and I can overwrite, add, delete, etc.

That means I can edit all recipes (block resources, refinery recipes, assembler recipes). I can create new blocks, but only if they copy behavior from another block. For example, someone made a merge block in a 3x3 ring shape, so you can have working docking ports that a player can pass through. A more extreme example is that I have a block ready that allows you to connect large/small blocks, as the game supports that and only arbitrary limits it. I can create new models and textures for about anything obviously. In terms of scenarios, lots is possible given time. I can edit asteroid shapes and contents (probably add new ores too), I can place ships at specific points (don't think I can randomly spread them around though) and I can decide how sparse the asteroid fields are and if there is a guaranteed cluster near the player. Most general tweaks are available too, like power consumption rates and build times and such. And lastly I can edit the rescue ship and cargo ships.

So yeah, no code for now I'm afraid. Pretty sure that's coming though.

BTW, I just discovered that I can make it so meteor storms first start after X amount of time, so I might up that value, so people can start out peacefully and eventually expect them.

[Katalliaan]

The problems I've found with it so far are the same problems that plague Space Engineers - the big one being that cargo ships are just loot pinatas. The first ship I approached was a military escort, with heavy armor. That heavy armor means I can expand my own ship quite a bit, and all the explosives could be broken apart for the silicon and magnesium to be used in other things - maybe getting a new solar panel, for example.

The other ship I took was a military transport; I neglected to check for a booby trap, and the only real price I paid was that it knocked out the cockpit. On that ship were 20 medical components, basically enough that I wouldn't have to go hunting for silver in order to build my medical bay; all I would have to do is ferry them over in my military escort.

Basically, the biggest issue I have with the game is that it's incredibly easy to get into a cargo ship and bring the loot back home. I'm not sure if it's because I was being cautious in my approaches or if it's because the turrets just weren't going to target me. In both cases, I carefully approached a turret and used its access panel to disable them all. It is something I hope can be fixed; it felt a bit cheap being able to fly right up to a military vessel and just disable it.

[Gilberreke]

It is something I hope can be fixed; it felt a bit cheap being able to fly right up to a military vessel and just disable it.

I'm going to look into the cargo ship issue. Maybe I can force them to be more active using factions, who knows?

[FlowerChild]

Are turrets on cargo ships not attacking in recent versions? Last time I tried boarding a military ship they tore me a new one.

If they don't attack anymore, might be worth waiting for tomorrow's release before putting any work into that Gil. I can't imagine that's something they'll let stand.

[Katalliaan]

I assumed they targeted you if you were moving too quickly, but something Gil said in the chat after I captured the escort made me think they might not attack you at all.

[FlowerChild]

Ug. Depressing death. Was building up nicely, had rearranged my solar panels for decent power output, got a refinery up and running, was almost finished putting a gyroscope on my ship, and I must have accidentally turned off my intertial dampeners as I suddenly found myself hurtling at an asteroid at "terminal velocity" :)

Anyone have a good trick for finding an old base? Don't think I can handle a restart right now.

[Taleric]

Ouch newtons kill :(

If the skybox were a proper universe you could orient yourself to systematically check directions.

I had a tough time when the asteroids were close, can't imagine a fix for so far apart.

[devak]

I assumed they targeted you if you were moving too quickly, but something Gil said in the chat after I captured the escort made me think they might not attack you at all.

i believe the magic value was 3m/s. Below that they don't target you.

maybe the civil and military ships need editing too, if that can be done? just throwing out a thought.

[Gilberreke]

Anyone have a good trick for finding an old base? Don't think I can handle a restart right now.

Yeah, restarts is something I need to find a system for, since they will be more common, what with getting a medical bay being harder.

I'll lump it in with rescue ships and wreck edits.

I'm considering making the wreck a station to avoid the thing you ran into to. I ran into a similar issue, making my ship spin, which was very annoying to play. With the new "convert to ship" button, that gives you time to work it into a nice ship first, before letting physics loose on it. Too many edge cases that give your broken ass wreck an uncontrollable movement I feel.

i believe the magic value was 3m/s. Below that they don't target you.

Katalliaan was going 24m/s and no attacks.

[Gilberreke]

I got it! I'm super excited, I just figured it out. I was waiting for a deus ex machina idea to fix this whole mess I made and I think it just came to me.

Starter wreck:
- Fix the nose
- Add beacon
- Make it a station

Rescue ship:
- Make it the same as starter ship

Cargo ships:
- Make them all wrecks similar to the starter wreck
- Have rare wrecks that have one valuable piece, like a reactor
- Until combat is fixed, remove working ships, later re-introduce militarized craft

Components:
- Remove assembler recipe for computers


That's it! The result? Salvaging wrecks for computer chips becomes super important. Towing wrecks becomes a necessity (I want to balance batteries in a way that forces you to make large solar ships for towing). These wrecks will contain just a few resources, so no more salvage missions that wreck the progression. By adding beacons to starter and rescue ships, I make sure that dying is less of an issue and it ties together that all wrecks on the map will always be visible. It also has the benefit of turning dying into somewhat of a hardcore start à la BTW. This also means I'll have to balance rescue wrecks, so they have enough speed that you don't have to spend 30 minutes floating towards base.

Add to that some larger changes to recipes, to make them more involved and I think this might become something enjoyable. As discussed with Katalliaan, I will make a victory monument block heavy on rare resources, so you have something to work towards.

EDIT: since I wrote this, the design already changed considerably, obviously. The main idea is the same though, computers being non-craftable. I'll keep what I'm working on a secret for now :3

[Gilberreke]

Oh BTW, FlowerChild, I just realized that if you make an ore detector, you can easily find your base again. Ore detectors have an expanded range in this mod.