Better Than Wolves Forum

I just looked at the old minecraft terrain gen (pre 1.8) and it reminded me how amazing it used to be. The current terain just doesn't have the exciting and interesting feel that the old terrain did, wherever you went you would see varied terrain and exploration was actually interesting. Can anybody justify why notch/mojang changed it? Any other thoughts on it?

The change was to make deserts like deserts, forests like forests, swamps like swamps, and plains like plains. Back when 1.8 came out, everybody was saying, "now THAT'S a desert!"

Which, frankly, is kind of the problem in a nutshell. When you see a desert, that's all you can say any more. "Well... that's a desert."

Yeah, I think the issue is that there just isn't enough variety within the terrain in any given biome, making large areas of uniform landscape rather dull.

The old system you basically had a single biome with a shit-ton of variety within it. I know I personally prefer the old areas of my world for that reason. They do look a hell of a lot more lively.

I have to agree. The old terrain generation was much more interesting because you never knew what to expect, there were so many possibilities for how the land would be shapen. Now, you can more or less reliably predict exactly what any landscape of a given biome will look like before you ever see it. The exception to me is Extreme Hills biomes, which still bear some semblance to the unpredictability of the older world generation, and that's likely why I like them so much in terms of landscape. At any rate, I can only assume that Mojang was seeking to make Minecraft landscapes more realistic, with variety based on diverse biomes rather than the much more various unpredictable terrain of previous versions.

Yeah, I can see what they were trying to do, and it even seemed like a good idea at the time to me as well, but like so many other things, it just doesn't feel like they ever really finished it.

I think the individual biomes need a lot more love put into them to give them unique looking topography that makes them all interesting to explore. The way it feels now, they just kinda look like they took a single biome's worth of content and spread it way way out.

This is exactly why I play large biomes (well, one of two reasons anyway) - while yes, the bland uniform expanse of whichever biome you are in is far larger, there is enough space within each biome to find those little gems of variation - a mountain covered in trees in a forest biome or a series of large offshore desert islands where the desert meets the ocean. Once I had a random huge cliff in a forest biome - not a new chunk with a different generation , it was irregular and in some places steep enough to show stone, others it was grassy all over. It had an overhang and caves broke the surface along it!

But it would be nice to see more interest, for every feature that I have described, there are hundreds of chunks of sameyness!

They should've divided generation into three parts I think. Vegetation, elevation, humidity perhaps. That way there's a bit more variety. The biomes for each also shouldn't correspond, so you get a forested biome that is partly taiga, partly jungle, partly swamp, with part of the jungle and swamp having a higher elevation. Stuff like that might have been a bit more interesting.

I don't like to admit it but landscapes are a huge factor for me in terms of what games I buy, sometimes even up with actual gameplay. The primary reason I bought Skyrim was because the world looked so beautiful. That's also what originally attracted me to minecraft, but I was pleasantly surprised to find a whole plethora of other reasons to play (oh man remember the terror you felt on your first night in minecraft?) Because of this I find myself feeling very tied to the evolution of the landscapes and upset about how they changed. But maybe it's a good thing since it forced me to settle down and make landscapes interesting?

Aye, I can't say I don't miss 1.7.3's terrain. I miss exploring and finding exiting new places, as opposed to the same-old same-old these days.

Maybe someone with java know-how will make a BTW add-on for terrain gen one of these days. Till then, if gameplay is art supplies and terrain gen is where the art's going, I'd rather work with BTW's oil paints on faded paper than use crayons on quality canvas.

Yeah it would be really cool if the terrain gen were more interesting. There are so many things they could have done with it! Honestly I think a terrain generation system with more variables with gradient values like the one in dwarf fortress could have provided a lot more variety and consistency in the terrain generation. Also no more snowy forests directly next to deserts. :P

There was a mod under development over on MCF that planned to revert the terrain generation back to pre-1.8. Its been abandoned, although it does have an alpha download if someone wanted to pick up from where they left off. Links in the spoiler.

Sarudak wrote:Also no more snowy forests directly next to deserts. :P

Yeah, I know right, it's a bit of a reality ruiner, there should be more of a gradual change :)

Really there need to be multiple stages to the generation. First the terrain, with a uniform distribution of noise. Then the water, grinding down certain areas and creating oceans, lakes and rivers. Then temperature and weather have to be applied in smooth gradients and finally specific features like vegetation and structures. This allows there to be truly varied terrain but the biomes can still be unique by altering the terrain to simulate things like erosion.

However, this would be difficult to do within the way minecraft generates terrain as a lot of it has to be done on a macro scale. So it would be very difficult to change to this system. The game would have to work more like dwarf fortress where large swathes of attributes are placed on a very large map.

Sarudak wrote:Also no more snowy forests directly next to deserts. :P

If only Mojang hadn't totally scrapped the extremely limited biome generator they used before 1.8. Being as it based biome location off randomly generated humidity and temperature values, it would have made things like this impossible. I'm guessing the current system doesn't work off that principle because of performance reasons?

personally id be all for deserts meeting taiga if it resulted in a border land between the two where there's extreme weather (frequent storms? tons of lightning? howling winds and tornados?) and the like from hot and cold air constantly meeting. :D

I think that might be pushing the terrain generator too far though. lol

Vexalor wrote:I'm guessing the current system doesn't work off that principle because of performance reasons?

Which of the updates since the new terrain gen have even hinted at maintaining performance?

I agree that a terrain gen that picks biomes based on things like temperature, humidity and elevation would be a win though. Hell, you could probably throw in a bunch of transition biomes to mix things up a bit; plains and forests that gradually turn more arid towards a desert and so on. Non-snowy, plains-like spruce forests that gradually merge into a snowier, hillier tiaga. Biome-specific Rivers that match the terrain colors, and maybe throw vegetation into otherwise barren wastelands?

The spirit is willing, but the mind is unable to code for shit.

Where do I sign?

lol, but seriously, I too have been greatly missing the old terrain gen. I remember when I first played MC that my favorite part was simply exploring the landscape looking for the best place to settle down to call home. I remember one of my first worlds I spawned in a pine forest atop a cliff, and down the cliff at the bottom ran a river out to a small island with towering cliffs and a forest at the top. As my first day came to an end, it started to rain. So I quickly scrambled to find shelter. (at the time I was a total noob and didn't realize I was playing on peaceful, didn't even know minecraft was supposed to have mobs XD) As I scrambled down the cliff face with a wooden pick in hand, I come across a light source! Lo' and behold I see a small surface lava-fall. I was totally mesmerized my the pretty lava, I wanted it, it was my precious. I dig out around it to learn more about what it was... then I put a block of cobble on the source block. :( I was extremely disheartened as my light source was gone and the shiney lava disappeared. I continue to dig out the side of the cliff to make a small man made cave to hold out the night. As I continue digging I find another single source of lava. I then proceed to carefully dig around it as to not put it out, and use it as my light source until I became more established.

I no longer have adventures like that anymore. The terrain gen is so bland now, I just look for a small cave or quick spot to set up shelter and proceed to harvest resources and work up the tech tree. I no longer roam the land in search for the perfect place because any place will do, just about. :(

This is exactly why I recently settled in an extreme hills biome: interesting terrain. Seriously, try the seed "booties". Awesome extreme hills, with cool cliffs and caverns. They are the only biomes that give me that sense of awe, besides ravines of course. Its unfortunate that it is so inefficient navigating extreme hills. I'm sure I'll get over that with lots of bridges.

The new deserts don't even feel like deserts to me with all of those water pools. This was probably a problem with the original one too, though.

I've actually contemplated creating a World Gen API for a very long time. The one thing that gets me every time I see mods like TerraFirmaCraft or Feed the Beast is the world gen in them. It wouldn't be difficult for me to make a simple API for mods that only alter world gen, though it would not be a performance booster by any means

TheGatesofLogic wrote:I've actually contemplated creating a World Gen API for a very long time. The one thing that gets me every time I see mods like TerraFirmaCraft or Feed the Beast is the world gen in them. It wouldn't be difficult for me to make a simple API for mods that only alter world gen, though it would not be a performance booster by any means

There's been discussion on IRC and it seems there's multiple people interested in such a thing.

That's the thing Gil, everyone would love it, except there's one problem: all those mods that would use said API would have to be rewritten for it. Not something that garners much popularity.

Also, API stuff is easy for me, but writing actual world-gen? Not something I'm interested in learning about right now.

TheGatesofLogic wrote:That's the thing Gil, everyone would love it, except there's one problem: all those mods that would use said API would have to be rewritten for it. Not something that garners much popularity.

Also, API stuff is easy for me, but writing actual world-gen? Not something I'm interested in learning about right now.

I guess. It's just interesting that there's currently no mods left that alter world-gen and work with BTW, come 1.5.2. All of them are now Forge.

I was looking for a mod that could spruce the terrain up a bit for my upcoming BTW play-through, but it seems like unless there's one written specifically with BTW in mind, I'm just dooming my world eventually.

Actually, since HC Strata came out, no Worldgen mods can work with BTW, unless coded specifically for it.

An API for worldgen would need to take into account Strata, HC Villages and looted/deserted temples, along with all teh regular Worldgen stuff.

DiamondArms wrote:Actually, since HC Strata came out, no Worldgen mods can work with BTW, unless coded specifically for it.

An API for worldgen would need to take into account Strata, HC Villages and looted/deserted temples, along with all teh regular Worldgen stuff.

Are you sure about that? Seems like you just pulled that information out of thin air.

As far as I can tell, FC lets the world generate, then applies strata. A world gen altering mod should simply have strata applied to it as well.

As for the villages/temples stuff, same story. Am I wrong and have you actually checked the source or is this just speculation on your part?