Game design stories

[JakeZKAM]

Since FC invited us to continue these stories/conversations elsewhere I made a thread for it, mostly because I find these insights in the life of a game designer to be very interesting, and while listening to the many experienced designers on the forum as well as FC himself has really given some great advice :-) so any who

1. In continuing the conversation about the public eye in game design, why does it seem like we have good communities and bad communities in various games? The BTW community is fairly small and well mannered, but is this only regulated to small communities?
2. Any more design stories out there? I'll eat them up like candy thanks ;)

[Sarudak]

The BTW community is heavily moderated. At least here on these forums. Hence you weed out the bad apples rather quickly.

[nmarshall23]

Since FC invited us to continue these stories/conversations elsewhere I made a thread for it, mostly because I find these insights in the life of a game designer to be very interesting, and while listening to the many experienced designers on the forum as well as FC himself has really given some great advice :-) so any who

1. In continuing the conversation about the public eye in game design, why does it seem like we have good communities and bad communities in various games? The BTW community is fairly small and well mannered, but is this only regulated to small communities?

No joke, lots of very aggressive moderation. It's very easy for the parasites to kill an online community. Yea, keeping small means that you can get to know people better. For example, I been going to P&P RPG Con's, I know lot's the the people their but only because it's a small crowd. There are designers that trust because we've had conversations. I've had the chance to get to know them, and get an feeling for what I enjoy in the games they make. There is even a few I would buy their next project sight unseen.

I don't know how FC does it. Several time's I thought he was about to burn out, but then he bounces back. How he keep up his level of output is amazing.

My personal conspiracy theory is that his is really a collection of trans-dimensional starfish. It's the only thing that makes sense, how else does he find time to both play the game, and work on the mod? Also it's well known that starfish hate wolves. They feel racially superior to wolves. Hence the whole Better then Wolves thing.

My experience is as an unpaid playtester, for pen and paper RPGs. Can you tell I like to make up stories? I work for credit, and the enjoyment I've gotten out of gaming.
These are small press often just one guy. I think that because that community is small and has filtered out the trolls, that's why I've been able to connect with some game designers. And built that rapport, so that they felt they could trust me with play test drafts of their game.

As far as game design goes, who hasn't tinkered with an RPG? Although, I have learned a lot from there guys. They enjoy sharing their wisdom, and I've picked up a bit. Learned how to look at the world though the eyes of a designer.

Comparing programmers and designers, programming is most often are taught from the engineering perspective. Design is the arrangement of those atoms in an elegant manner. It's often taught from an art perspective. I think that designer often piss of programmers because no one can offer an mathematical proof of why something is a good design. At the same time, there is an aspect of design in well written code. The best I can explain that is like when poets break the rules. You know something queer there. That feeling is of bad code design.

Anyhow, do you have any specific questions?

[FlowerChild]

I don't know how FC does it. Several time's I thought he was about to burn out, but then he bounces back. How he keep up his level of output is amazing.

Lots of people say it, but I honestly do have a personality that thrives on adversity, or at least is motivated by it once it reaches a certain level.

I don't like it mind you, not at all, but I do know that at a certain point I have a very strong "I won't let the fuckers beat me" impulse that kicks in, and kicks me in the ass.

Because yeah, I've definitely been on the ropes more than once over the course of developing BTW.

[JakeZKAM]

Anyhow, do you have any specific questions?

Many but I'd rather not flood the thread with all of the "Where do I start, how do I ____" questions I would have about Designing games or RPGs, or even testing them. Yet I wonder what is the most enjoyable part of the process for Designers/Programmers/Testers. Is it the end product itself or are the best moments within the creation of it?

Lots of people say it, but I honestly do have a personality that thrives on adversity, or at least is motivated by it once it reaches a certain level.

I don't like it mind you, not at all, but I do know that at a certain point I have a very strong "I won't let the fuckers beat me" impulse that kicks in, and kicks me in the ass.

Because yeah, I've definitely been on the ropes more than once over the course of developing BTW.

From my previous lurking I noticed, It's a good trait to be able to push on through throughout the shitstorm, but I can't say I'm glad you have to put up with it.

[Charzy]

1. In continuing the conversation about the public eye in game design, why does it seem like we have good communities and bad communities in various games? The BTW community is fairly small and well mannered, but is this only regulated to small communities?

I think a forum just needs to have slow growth to have a good community.
Thinking of two examples here, the Bay12 forums and the Minecraft forums.


The Bay12 forums have one active moderator. One. He's the full-time developer of the game the forum is based around, and there's less than a ban a month on average. Even with that, the community there is friendly and helpful even with a few thousand members. The forums there grew slowly.

Then there's the Minecraft forums. They have about ten thousand active moderators, most of whom are shit and either hand out bans like pennies to the homeless, or don't do anything at all. It's gotten worse and worse over time.
However, it grew very, very fast as Minecraft did, and so the community got flooded with outside ideas before the newer people could be assimilated into the right way of thinking, as happens on many good forums.

[FlowerChild]

You're talking about a very different kind of audience with DF though man. It's not like 14 year olds with ADD go anywhere near DF.

I think the same applies to BTW in some ways. Yes, moderation helps, but it's not like the Technic crowd wants to play this mod (thank the gods).

If your subject matter tends to appeal to intelligent and mature individuals, it already goes a long way towards building a solid community, other factors aside.

[PatriotBob]

You're talking about a very different kind of audience with DF though man. It's not like 14 year olds with ADD go anywhere near DF.

I think the same applies to BTW in some ways. Yes, moderation helps, but it's not like the Technic crowd wants to play this mod (thank the gods).

If your subject matter tends to appeal to intelligent and mature individuals, it already goes a long way towards building a solid community, other factors aside.

People who think you made BTW too hard need to go play DF for a while. Learn to enjoy Dwarf Fortress and Better than Wolves seems like a nice, well balanced game with just enough difficulty to keep things interesting for a long time. Because going straight from vanilla to BTW is like going from checkers to chess. Yeah they're played on the same board, but don't try to relate the two as far as game-play goes.

This best describes DF. And BTW seems to like to play in the hardcore section with !FUN! excursions in to DF territory.

Spoiler

Show

Which is awesome.

So Sarudak and FlowerChild. Keep your ban hammers juicy with the gore of the fallen. For the good of the community.

And not everyone who plays Technic is bad... I'm sure there's one... maybe two that are ok.
Not that I'd know from experience. Nope.

[nmarshall23]

Many but I'd rather not flood the thread with all of the "Where do I start, how do I ____" questions I would have about Designing games or RPGs, or even testing them.

Understandable, however I will direct you to were you can get all of those questions answered, check out the Forge, and Story Games forums. People there have lots of great advise. If board games are your thing, check Board Game Geek, they have forums about game designs also.

Yet I wonder what is the most enjoyable part of the process for Designers/Programmers/Testers. Is it the end product itself or are the best moments within the creation of it?

For me, yea, I love seeing something come to life. It's the crafting of a thing, even if my part is only giving feedback. It's like being an uncle. Although, playing games for free is a lot of fun too. I also do enjoy the bragging rights, and seeing my name in print, even if it's in the way back of the book.

As a programmer, crafting a puzzle, or a challenge and having other's trying and watching them suffer, but then solve it, and tell you how much they enjoyed themselves, that's another kinda of awesome. Being a game master for an RPG is kinda like that too..

In a way being a play tester is like being a designer's apprentice. Even if I never write my own game, I've learned another way of looking at the world.

For example, Minecraft stairs are wrong visually. They don't match the recipe, there should be three steps. Real architecture uses thirds. Also Steve being two block high, feels off. That's why most people make their houses with a ceiling three blocks high. Take a look at lego's their subblock are three high as well.
I'm certain that 1/2 block steps are a limitation of the game engine, that Notch was worried about performance.

[FlowerChild]

For example, Minecraft stairs are wrong visually. They don't match the recipe, there should be three steps.

I'm not entirely certain about that man. I think it may be a simple case of Notch wanting a crafting table to be required for stairs, whereas if he had made the recipe only have two steps, it could be made by hand. You may be reading too much into it.

[Charzy]

Steve's something like 1.8 blocks high, isn't he? That's just a tall adult man.