The Learning Curve: Redstone, Logic, and Applications

[BuLLZ3Y3]

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UPDATE
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Hey everyone, I've got some RL stuff going on right now. Nothing uber serious, just a lot on my plate. As soon as I get a chance to come back, I will be continuing with this project. Feel free to continue posting ideas, suggestions, and criticisms, as I will read it all when I get home. Till then, keep posting, keep building, and keep being awesome.

-BuLLZ3Y3

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Alright, so I've been here for a little while and I have decided it's time to get onto the one big topic that I really want to talk about in relation to BTW - Redstone. Welcome to the Learning Curve.

We've all seen videos of Battosay's (And many other people's) amazing creations. We've seen videos of the clocks, the bridges, the elevators, and the mounds of redstone required to make them all function correctly. Several of us have whistled and said, "Man, I hope I'm 1/4th as good as that guy one day."

Well, why can't we be?

What I am proposing, or rather, what I am interested in discussing, is whether or not a dedicated BTW Redstone class is a solid idea. Sure, you can watch redstone tutorials, or watch tutorials on how to create Automatic Hemp Farms, but what that doesn't do is teach you what you need to know in order to design, build, and execute those things.

Better Than Wolves has brought us a new reason to utilize Redstone in our everyday Minecraft lives. What I want to know is if a structured, thought-out, and well taught redstone class would be possible. We have some redstone geniuses who frequent these forums every day. I would like to propose a structured course of working through redstone, redstone logic, and the eventual implimantation of that logic into Minecraft Applications. The content could be delivered in any number of ways, but most likely it will be through a series of YouTube videos that will probably have written "texts" or articles on whatever topic is being covered.

This is obviously a huge project, probably larger than actually building all of those cool things in Minecraft, but if we all become better builders, than I believe it is worth it. That being said, if there isn't enough response to this it probably isn't going to happen. So, tell me what you think, and let's get building.

-BuLLZ3Y3

[BigShinyToys]

i have just about fished a digital clock in minecraft. i am testing it now.from my axperence of going from redstone noob to expert i first learnt the LOGIC stuff. that means look up logic gated on wikipedia. first then binary computation. these were the two places i learnt most from. then i went to the minecraft wiki and applyed the logic gates in mincraft. learning binary and logic are not somthibg that will happen over night. just give it time andwhere you dont understand stomthing consulg google or wikkipedia. as for making a specilised cource for minecraft binary logic . it would be a very hard to pull off. but im all for the idear i just wont be contrubting my self.

[Conscript Gary]

Well, there are already plenty of tutorials on redstone logic in general.
If you mean the specific BTW applications- elevators, turntable clocks, how to power the block that a dispenser dispenses- then that could definitely be worthwhile.

[BuLLZ3Y3]

Well, there are already plenty of tutorials on redstone logic in general.
If you mean the specific BTW applications- elevators, turntable clocks, how to power the block that a dispenser dispenses- then that could definitely be worthwhile.

There are several tutorials, yes, but they simply show you what the logic gate looks like. I want something more in depth, that will allow you to understand when and where the redstone logic is applicable.

And yes, I do intend for this to focus on BTW applications. The mod itself is what made me think of creating this redstone class.

-BuLLZ3Y3

[szmbiont]

I don't know whether i am a pro on redstone or not. But i think im quiet well. I dont really had to learn anything cause i came from a technical education and studying computer science atm.
So with the knowledge in boolean algebra and normal logic gates its no problem to do stuff in minecraft. So my recommendation would be to learn that stuff.

[petrus4]

What I am proposing, or rather, what I am interested in discussing, is whether or not a dedicated BTW Redstone class is a solid idea.

No need. That problem has already been solved.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/365 ... tone-pipe/

I don't know how to build anything more complex than a 5 clock manually, and yet thanks to Eloraam's work, I can now build factories to the same extent as anyone else. Before anyone possibly gets sick of me for continuing to mention every mod here *other* than BTW, realise that I'm still an avid user of BTW as well. I do automated hemp/wheat milling, foul food production with the cauldron, etc.

I've often tried to work with naked redstone, but it has never been anything other than an exercise in frustration. The crap about whether or not you have torches stuck to the side of another block, or simply standing on the top of the block, is probably the single major issue, but there are plenty of other examples. It's just a lot more flakey and fiddly than it needs to be, and although I love solving problems, I've got infinitely better things to be doing with my time.

Problem solving to me, means figuring out how different blocks work together; but it doesn't mean tedious stuff like trying to figure out how to use manual repeaters, to make a redstone current go up a wall. It certainly doesn't mean having to solve that problem more than once, at the absolute most. For that, I'll either get the wireless mod, or use Eloraam's insulated wire, and be done with it. There are far too many other, infinitely more interesting things to be learning about, and we'll be dead soon, which means that we need to be very, very selective as to where we spend our time.

I've also never seen anything yet, personally, which truly required anything more complex than an Or gate. (For putting elevator buttons at the top/bottom of a shaft, etc)

If Minecraft requires an inverter for double doors, then I'll get ToggleBlocks which will let me open both sides with the same pressure plate; no inverter required. If I need to actively use redstone, then I will, but I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to do so.

I honestly get the feeling that the focus of some people is to actually make things as complex as possible. My priority is the opposite; let's get something on both sides of the equals sign, but as long as we preserve transparency, let's also do so in the minimal number of necessary steps possible.

[Battosay]

What I am proposing, or rather, what I am interested in discussing, is whether or not a dedicated BTW Redstone class is a solid idea.

No need. That problem has already been solved.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/365 ... tone-pipe/

That's totally irrelevant here. He's offering to teach how to use redstone and understand the logic gates, and how to use this knowledge to do something with BTW.
You're givin' him a mod that makes all that for you even if you don't understand it.
Of course, your solution is much easier. Some will rather use that. Others will be more encline to try and understand it for real.

So yeah, looks like a really good idea BuLLZ3Y3, I'm looking forward to what you'll do :)

[morvelaira]

Good sir, where may I find the registrar so I may sign up and pay my gold blocks for this course?

Redstone and it's application has always been a challenge for me. The major problem with it and myself is I look at tutorial after tutorial, read article after article. It all seems to make sense at the time, and if I have step by step instructions to recreate something, I can probably do it. But if I'm looking at a blank canvas, trying to wire something more complicated than press a button and open a door? It turns into a jumble of noodly nonsense.

The biggest detriment I've seen to the majority of the tutorials dealing with Redstone is they all (except the most basic of tutorials) assume you already have prior knowledge, either because they don't want to explain it, or can't. A structured, fully in-depth course on Redstone - how it works, why it works, and the concepts behind it - would be a godsend to someone like me.

Not only do I want to take this course, I want to help with it. I have guinea pig and baking skills. Do either of them appeal?

[Miss_Kat]

I would love an in-depth redstone class, personally. I understand redstone enough to make a toggle for a button and a five-clock, but that's it. Especially with the BTW focus, I think it'd add a ton of value to the community.

[BuLLZ3Y3]

Sorry for the late reply, I was busy getting a job and stuff. =D

The biggest detriment I've seen to the majority of the tutorials dealing with Redstone is they all (except the most basic of tutorials) assume you already have prior knowledge, either because they don't want to explain it, or can't. A structured, fully in-depth course on Redstone - how it works, why it works, and the concepts behind it - would be a godsend to someone like me.

This is the exact reason as to why I want to impliment this course. There are, I believe, hundreds of people who look at Better Than Wolves and say, "Man that stuff is awesome! But I'm not good with redstone and so I can't really use it to its full potential."

No need. That problem has already been solved.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/365 ... tone-pipe/

Petrus, you are absolutely right. Using that mod would make using redstone much simpler, and I believe in time that will be the next step in Redstone evolution. However, I am of the firm believe that if it isn't vMC or BTW, I don't want to use it. I'm the hardcore survival mode player. If I can't find it, I won't use it. And even if people aren't of that persuasion, I think there are many people who wish to fully understand redstone and redstone logic, in order to put them to full use.

-snip-

Omg itz Battosay! *squeals*

I mean...ahem...Hello good sir. It is an honor to speak with you on these forums.

I would love an in-depth redstone class, personally. I understand redstone enough to make a toggle for a button and a five-clock, but that's it. Especially with the BTW focus, I think it'd add a ton of value to the community.

Miss_Kat, thank you for posting! I am enjoying reading these initial reactions. =)

-BuLLZ3Y3

[Adjudicator79]

I'd be very interested in this as well. I'm feeling my up the Redstone knowledge chain, usually failure by failure. I still don't have a functioning rail system because I can't figure out why I can't switch the curved track to straight even when running power to it.

Anyway, I'd be happy to assist however I can. The BTW: Design Philosophy thread is great, and I enjoy that, but I like doing practical things as well.

Since my redstone knowledge is limited, I can't offer any expertise there. But I am a real life professor, so I can offer some assistance in putting together lesson plans, designing a course, and identifying and implementing teaching objectives. If you want some help with preparing course materials or writing up the text/articles to go along with the course, I'd be happy to assist there, as professional writing is a big part of what I do.

Looking forward to where this goes!

[Vongard]

i am no expert at redstone by any means but i understand the basics of how to hook things up correctly the first time once you start talking about timers not using a turn table you have lost me though =P so i would take this course and help where i can.

[Speltz]

Yeah, I'd be interested in some hands-on education with redstone. What are your thoughts on setting this up? Maybe a SMP server where people can login, and some redstone gurus can show people different applications and answer questions? Although this wouldn't work for BTW-specific uses (although you might be able to use a "gravel block = detector block" sort of thing), it might be helpful for newbies like me.
I've been considering getting one of those hosted SMP servers for a while, though I've been a bit reluctant since I don't really have any friends who play, but I could put aside a few bucks a month if people would find it useful. (No experience with multiplayer though, so that will be another learning curve).

[Stormweaver]

I dabbled a bit in electronics when I was younger, and thankfully some of the thought processes from way back stuck around till I found out about the wonders of redstone. The biggest hurdle I faced though was that redstone doesn't really act like circuitry; everything happens at set intervals, and the delays incurred change a lot of the basic principals that you'd normally react naturally to; not to mention annoying things like torches burning out for 'no apparent reason' >.>

If there was a 'class' as such, I'd suggest it be in the form of a handful of youtube 'lessons', working their way up from how to wire things so they do what you expect, through working out what you want from a circuit and using logic (gates) to achieve it, up till perfecting the timing and using some of the more complex circuits; the difference being that after each video is posted, a discussion for it is opened somewhere in the forum where the less experienced can get more information, or simply confirm what they saw in the video.

[Haidaes]

I dabbled a bit in electronics when I was younger, and thankfully some of the thought processes from way back stuck around till I found out about the wonders of redstone. The biggest hurdle I faced though was that redstone doesn't really act like circuitry; everything happens at set intervals, and the delays incurred change a lot of the basic principals that you'd normally react naturally to; not to mention annoying things like torches burning out for 'no apparent reason' >.>

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "you'd normally react naturally to" but gate propagation delay and resulting hazards are quite the challenge in real life too, as soon as you work with variable signals and timers anyway. But the thing most ppl struggle with isn't building a working decoder, a basic microprocessor or even a simple 4-bit-adder. Most ppl who aren't into redstone struggle with the basics, as how to get signal from a to b, how to build a latch with a stable output (no flickering!) how does a certain gate work and so on. Most of the answers can be found on minecraft wiki (even though some patches make some of the things listed there obsolete). But ppl aren't willing to go look there or want to do something that seems easy in theory but can be quite the callenge because of the limitations in minecraft.

If there was a 'class' as such, I'd suggest it be in the form of a handful of youtube 'lessons', working their way up from how to wire things so they do what you expect, through working out what you want from a circuit and using logic (gates) to achieve it, up till perfecting the timing and using some of the more complex circuits; the difference being that after each video is posted, a discussion for it is opened somewhere in the forum where the less experienced can get more information, or simply confirm what they saw in the video.

Afaik there are already alot of videos on youtube how to make redstone circuitry, some of them are actually quite good, but some ppl just need someone to hold their hand while building it (thats not ment as an insult, its just how learning for some ppl works). The thing is most of the stuff ppl create is lots of trial & error.

You have a basic idea,
you try it out a few times,
you realize the timing is off,
you keep adjusting the delays,
you keep iterating it until it works.

But the problem is another one when it comes to BTW things. To build an automated hemp farm you need an idea and basic understanding of what each block is capable of. While you can teach the mechanics of the block, it'll be quite hard to teach ppl stuff that tends to be learned by experimenting around yourself. In the end you can show them how to wire a piston so that it pushes hemp into a flowing pool of water but that doesn't mean they can expand on that idea. There's a saying that goes by something like : 'life is the best teacher' and in this case just going out there grabbing a few items and building stuff is probably the best way to learn it.

Else you will always just copy Battosay :).


As for the OP:
Imho you'd have to teach ppl boolean algebra (though thats mostly needed for decoders and minimizing redstone contraptions) and the basic principles of truthtables. All that is missing then is a list of the limitations of redstone (only 15 blocks until the signal runs out, rapid pulsing (flickering) burns torches out, the basics behind delays and so on. But most of this can be looked up on youtube or the wiki. All thats left is teaching ppl math :).

[emmasteadman]

Ye I could definately use some pointers in restone logic, so that I could do them myself without having to study other ppl's videos to copy their redstone layout. Be nice to able just to decide what's needed and do them, such as flip flops, inverters, memory thingies etc etc.

Example I built a bridge using pullies....it works fine except if the button is active on one side of bridge (on) and i go to the other side....i can't switch it off and vice versa.
Not knowing how to fix that annoys me no end.

[Zenofire]

I would definitely be interested in a Redstone class. Regardless of weather it's presented in SMP, youtube videos, or what have you. The most compicated thing (in my opinion) I made is a minecart system that sends you off once you get inside and replaces the cart after you leave via pez dispenser. I'm pretty proud of my double doors as well, they open up at the same time and everything :P . I want to know the logic behind it. The 1s and 0s of the matter. Looking at the diagrams in the wiki make my head hurt and allow me to barely stumble through. I need to grasp the concept, otherwise it just doesn't compute for me. I have the problem, I know the solution, I just need the formula.

[BuLLZ3Y3]

Gah, lots of reply's and little time to reply to them all!

To all of you who said you are interested, thank you! I'm working on getting the teachers, lesson structure, and form of communication (YouTube, server, etc.) nailed down. That being said, I've also started working again (Hurray! =D ) so I've been wicked busy.

To those with more specific responses, I will respond to you all after I get off work tonight (Around midnight Pacific Standard Time).

Thanks for the reply's folks!

-BuLLZ3Y3

[Battosay]

Imho you'd have to teach ppl boolean algebra (though thats mostly needed for decoders and minimizing redstone contraptions) and the basic principles of truthtables. All that is missing then is a list of the limitations of redstone (only 15 blocks until the signal runs out, rapid pulsing (flickering) burns torches out, the basics behind delays and so on. But most of this can be looked up on youtube or the wiki. All thats left is teaching ppl math :).

I've never learned boolean algebra, or the principles of truthtables, I was an average math student, I can't fully understand a redstone diagram on the wiki. I watched ... 3, maybe 4 redstone video : A very basic one (RS torches, signal going 15 blocks, vertical transmission etc), one for the RS Nor latch, one for an AND/NAND gate, and one for a Flip flop. That's it.
And yet I managed to do all the stuff you (might have) saw on my vids.
You don't need all that to do complex stuff. Just trial and error. Again, and again, and again. And a good sense of logic. And trial and error.

Knowing perfectly how tu use, and what to do, with :
-RS nor
-AND/XOR gate
-Flip flop
-Monostable circuit
-Some physic based clock (water, or plant)
You can build everything I made in my vid.

[Thieme]

Well Battosay you really nail it :P
I just think some people cannot grasp the logic behind it.
Thinking logically is a hard thing to do i can't even wrap my head around the wrokings of a T-flipflop and have to look up the shematic like each time i build one.

But for the rest what i think is all you need is patience, a bit of common sence and a little determination. All the information needed to know is already out there you just need to find it and then use it to get better from. If you don't quite understand something the first time you read it or watch a vid just read/watch again. Also like Battosay says trial and error works wonders to.

[Haidaes]

I've never learned boolean algebra, or the principles of truthtables, I was an average math student, I can't fully understand a redstone diagram on the wiki. I watched ... 3, maybe 4 redstone video : A very basic one (RS torches, signal going 15 blocks, vertical transmission etc), one for the RS Nor latch, one for an AND/NAND gate, and one for a Flip flop. That's it.
And yet I managed to do all the stuff you (might have) saw on my vids.
You don't need all that to do complex stuff. Just trial and error. Again, and again, and again. And a good sense of logic. And trial and error.

Knowing perfectly how tu use, and what to do, with :
-RS nor
-AND/XOR gate
-Flip flop
-Monostable circuit
-Some physic based clock (water, or plant)
You can build everything I made in my vid.

Which was pretty much what i was going for in my comment. The thing is the stuff needed for automating a farm or something like that has very little to do with learning how to do uber-awsome stuff that makes it into the digital dimonds series on the minecraft forums. As I mentioned before the last part of the post you don't need to build a working pc or calculator in minecraft. Truthtables (as easy as they are) are just a tool for expressing a function of a system. They can be helpfull to understand a given system (like a new gate on the wiki), but of course they are completly over-kill if you use them for controling a door which pretty much is a XOR latch with two levers. What I was going at is that the information is already there, if ppl can't understand it, it could only be due some lacking basic knowledge or the inability 'to google'. Fixing the first one is possible, the 2nd one I won't even try :P.

If you really want to teach ppl though, this is the only thing that is really worth teaching. You won't simply teach people logic (in a more general sense) in a few videos. But this is exactly what they need besides time. Imho most people just don't realize that all these crazy contraptions are mostly a work of trial and error or a mixture of very basic componends (which can be looked up) that you just rebuild, connect and maybe smooth around the edges.

But I'm beginning to sound extremly pessimistic, I'm eager to see how you will do it BuLLZ3Y3 as I enjoy to see how other ppl approach a problem and alot of ppl seem to be interested in more guiding :).

[BigShinyToys]

couple of points.
difrent people learn diffrently. i just pick it up shake it poke it with a stick . then get bit . and that is how i found out how redstone works. as im very hands on. but others look at it take a picture look it up reed about it then they get it. i think what you are doing here is for the type 2 "read first ppl" . cos you want a set do a then do b and look at whar c douse. that was boored the hell outa me on school. but for some this would be very use full . you would need Quick tips . A list of gate designs with truth tables and the correct icon for the gates. this should be a printible chart that would be used as a refrence matrial for the course.
All in all the idear has merit.
(sorry for any spelling / grammer probblems . cos im replying from my Nintendo DSi and it has no spell check)

[HavokSCOUT]

I like the idea of a redstone class, and if you need any help, I would consider myself fairly average at redstone wiring and other minecraftean stuff, such as setting up servers and such.

[walker_boh_65]

I wouldnt mind seeing what you have to teach, i highly doubt that basics will be any different then the videos on YouTube, but being able to comment and actually talk to the video maker could be new and helpful, but the only real difference, and its a big one, is that this is using BTW items and thinking, so count me in to watching your videos id love to see how you talk about the more complex aspects (even if thats not entirely needed to do anything)

[BuLLZ3Y3]

Updated the original post with new info. See you guys later.

-BuLLZ3Y3