Technic Mod Pack

[Adien_Alexander]

who knows,but there might have been some coordination.
it seems like all of the IC internet servers are down,yet they were fine recently.
it's very possible they're trying to isolate him...
maybe beacause adien did a very convincing comment just a while ago,and if i was alb,i'd instantly have made my mind.
they could have tried to isolate that from him.

Just to point out a few things here:

• My comment was not meant to sway Al into choosing one direction, or the other, I was merely helping him weigh out his options.
• The reason industrial-craft.net is down is due to the increased traffic from the Yogscast video featuring IC2, most likely from looking up recipes (The blog, the forums, and the wiki are all tied to the same host).
• I'm not a Goon (I neither praise nor condone their actions), I'm not a Yognaught (I'm personally not a fan of their play-style, and most of their episodes feel too scripted for me), and I don't use BTW (The only reason I even have an account here is because my name was brought up).

Now, to directly quote what I said on the IC forums (since it's currently unstable):

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On the one hand it's not right to use somebodys work without permission OR promote such doing.

This is the heavier hand of the two, but I'm not saying it's the wrong one entirely. Take Minecraft as a whole, for example: Take it's 3 million strong fanbase (Paid members), you cannot tell me that each and every person that now owns Minecraft, purchased it right away, before even playing it. It's due to their love of the game that they paid and supported Notch, and Team Mojang. This leads to the other hand:

On the other hand this WILL boost IC²'s popularity. Big Time.

Since you're making mods, for your enjoyment (I recall this being stated somewhere) and not for the money, it should be flattering that you'll be having a large increase in fans due to a high-profile Publicity Team, The Yogscast, reviewing your mod (Although it was in modpack that didn't have the Necessary permissions).


A compromise, if I may suggest one, would be to allow the Yogscast to publish the part 2 of their review of the Technic Pack, upon them agreeing to admit the pack was compiled without the necessary permissions and a possible re-visit to IC2, once it's in a more finished state.


I am in no way agreeing with what happened here, but I'm just trying to help provide some insight into weighing the options.

Yes, I could see how this could be taken as I'm trying to sway Al one way, but all I'm trying to do is shed some light on the situation. What's done is done, you can't turn off the spotlight that's pointing at IC2 now. I've been with IC since it was a wee baby (Granted it came out in an alpha stage right before 1.3, and I picked it up directly after). If you've used IC at all, or even looked at it's Minecraft Forum Thread(s), or even it's own forums (which I am a moderator), you would know I'm highly active there and want nothing than the best for Industrialcraft. Press is Press at this point, we've just got to make sure it's the coverage we want.


As a closing statement, I hope that this thing boils down, and fast. I know there is a "Forge Installer" (Not created by the Minecraft Forge Team) in the works that will help alleviate the headaches of getting the major forge mods to play nice in the same environment.

Cheers,

Adien

[Magmarashi]

words

Magus, your hostility and paranoia that everything is somehow a underhanded plot is sorta killing the attempts to move towards intelligent and rational discourse with the few goons and lurkers that have signed up to offer rational counterpoints.

These are people, not evil wizards or government shadowmen, lighten up a little please. I'd hate to see niceties fall apart just as they are starting out.

[Smickers]

Just going to clear up some misconceptions here.

For them and their kin, maybe... but they fuck over everyone else just cuz... textbook nepotism to say the least...

The only thing goons have in common is that each one paid $10 to post in an internet forum. You might think its stupid to pay money for a forum. You may or may not be right. However, it does keep a lot of people who are stupid, or cannot grasp simple typing skills out. And goons don't fuck EVERYONE over, quite a few charitable efforts have spawned from those forums.

I still don't believe you...

Forums invasions are really against the rules. If you don't believe me, try to join SA and you will get enraged red text displaying the rules and there actually are quite a few of them.

Legality
Regarding the legal issue of mods and their use: I can't say for certain since the US legal system but I have studied intellectual property law in Scandinavia and if it follows the same principles (which it seems to do based on a quick google check :) ) then mod authors are indeed entitled to a copyright since there is a threshold of originality that can reasonably be perceived as fulfilled by the mods included in the modpack in question and is also probably significantly different from the content of "vanilla" Minecraft so that it can be considered a separate creation. Now, this is more or less the same legal issue that any form of piracy is concerned with and while it is hardly enough for any real legal action it is still an illegal action to spread these mods without permission from the authors.

I cannot say for certain whether this mod can be copyrighted, as I am not involved in that area of law. Still, the government doesn't actively enforce copyright infringements, you must file a complaint at a federal court. If you feel that strongly that infringement has taken place, then by all means file.

DoS attack/error... either they are swarming the site now and are contacting him in some way outside of said site, or too many people are trying to access the wiki just to look up how to use Industrial Craft...

No, there is no DDoS. While SA has over 150000 members, probably <100 post regularly in the Minecraft Mods thread. It is a diverse community with people from all over in all kinds of professions posting. But please don't join if you end every thought with an ellipses, you will be disappointed about your $10.

I am sorry if none of you understand that we play minecraft for fun. We want to spend the least amount of time in forums trying to sort through the mods and installing the mods. Now, I will go and break some bricks, collect them, and pleasingly arrange them back onto the ground.

[MagusUnion]

These are people, not evil wizards or government shadowmen, lighten up a little please. I'd hate to see niceties fall apart just as they are starting out.

...

Alright, fine then...

[FlowerChild]

I just wanted to ad that while I don't agree with their point of view (obviously), I have seen no evidence of the goons launching DoS or otherwise organized attacks against this forum or others. There was some talk amongst the administrators of this forum last night about whether to shut down registration completely to help prevent such things, and I personally didn't think it was necessary.

I am glad to see that I was right about that, and also want to thank most of the goons that have joined us here for being mostly respectful in the discussion.

Mind you, I still think you're a bunch of fucktards, but I appreciate the civility regardless ;)

[Kwilt]

Legality
Regarding the legal issue of mods and their use: I can't say for certain since the US legal system but I have studied intellectual property law in Scandinavia and if it follows the same principles (which it seems to do based on a quick google check :) ) then mod authors are indeed entitled to a copyright since there is a threshold of originality that can reasonably be perceived as fulfilled by the mods included in the modpack in question and is also probably significantly different from the content of "vanilla" Minecraft so that it can be considered a separate creation. Now, this is more or less the same legal issue that any form of piracy is concerned with and while it is hardly enough for any real legal action it is still an illegal action to spread these mods without permission from the authors.

On this topic (sorry for being a little late everybody; the sleep schedule is fucked up for some reason), I can 90% confirm that yes, US law would follow that same process, due to Mojang's TOU for Minecraft. Again, it's incredibly unprofessionally worded and loophole-ridden, but it's an EULA nonetheless. If what the TOU says is true, then a modmaker would be able to do whatever he wanted with his mod, including having specifications for redistribution and repackaging.

[Mrchaim]

Mind you, I still think you're a bunch of fucktards, but I appreciate the civility regardless ;)

Yes, but you seem to think that of just about everyone. Just sayin' *is shot*.

Sillyness aside, seconding the thanks to people who are working to keep it polite. It's making this discussion actively interesting to read, as opposed to the last one where you ended up just wanting to set fire to everyone. And their little dogs too.

[Kwilt]

Another point I'd like to bring up in regards to the conversation over on SA, is that they're actually bringing in the idea of using the TOU. Fair enough, I can level with them.

They make the point that the Terms of Use mention how distribution of Notch's code (even modified) is a violation, which I can understand. However, they seem to neglect that sixty-eight of the .class mods in BTW alone are built from scratch. FC, I have to ask, even if it would be hell and back to do it, would you say it is possible (no matter how arduous the task) to code a mod for Minecraft without modifying a single base .class file?

[MagusUnion]

Another point I'd like to bring up in regards to the conversation over on SA, is that they're actually bringing in the idea of using the TOU. Fair enough, I can level with them.

They make the point that the Terms of Use mention how distribution of Notch's code (even modified) is a violation, which I can understand. However, they seem to neglect that sixty-eight of the .class mods in BTW alone are built from scratch. FC, I have to ask, even if it would be hell and back to do it, would you say it is possible (no matter how arduous the task) to code a mod for Minecraft without modifying a single base .class file?

Yes, IC^2 and such does this all the time now with Forge...

Edit: Also real sicking that developers can be bought off like that. I guess no one has standards anymore.

[Kwilt]

Yes, IC^2 and such does this all the time now with Forge...

I don't see why we shouldn't just convert to this full-time, then. Nobody could complain about modified files anymore. At that point, every single piece of the mod would be the modmakers. Suddenly, that whole argument goes *poof*.

[knight2109]

Another point I'd like to bring up in regards to the conversation over on SA, is that they're actually bringing in the idea of using the TOU. Fair enough, I can level with them.

They make the point that the Terms of Use mention how distribution of Notch's code (even modified) is a violation, which I can understand. However, they seem to neglect that sixty-eight of the .class mods in BTW alone are built from scratch. FC, I have to ask, even if it would be hell and back to do it, would you say it is possible (no matter how arduous the task) to code a mod for Minecraft without modifying a single base .class file?

Also I have seen an interview of Notch where he speaks about mods where he not only supports it but endorses it.

Another point to bring up is, why would he be releasing modding support if he would take action against mods for distributing his code?

the interview
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/ ... rview.aspx

[Haidaes]

Yes, IC^2 and such does this all the time now with Forge...

I don't see why we shouldn't just convert to this full-time, then. Nobody could complain about modified files anymore. At that point, every single piece of the mod would be the modmakers. Suddenly, that whole argument goes *poof*.

For every class BTW does not change the Forge needs to change/replae it instead, afaik. You can't mod minecraft in a way most mods do w/o changing stuff, thats simply not how prgramming works (and I doubt even in java you can call a method w/o telling the 'compiler' where it is). Iirc the forge consists mostly of hooks that let you acess classes and their methods so not everyone has to change the file themself which results in alot of conflicting classes with the same name but everyone having only a little bit diffrent code in it. So you only shift the problem to the forge which FC is a part of as well and hence would still be in a legal grey zone.

[FlowerChild]

Yes, IC^2 and such does this all the time now with Forge...

I don't see why we shouldn't just convert to this full-time, then. Nobody could complain about modified files anymore. At that point, every single piece of the mod would be the modmakers. Suddenly, that whole argument goes *poof*.

Yup, pretty much every major mod using the Forge (Redpower, Buildcraft, IC2) is base-clean, meaning that they DO NOT modify Minecraft, but are stand-alone plug-ins. So, for those mods, the argument over on SA that the mods themselves violate the terms of use is total hooey. The mod authors retain sole ownership, as per the MC EULA.

BTW is not base-clean at this point because there is functionality in this mod that simply can not be done in that fashion. However, that functionality is slowly migrating over to the Forge with each new release of BTW, so it is certainly not impossible that it will one day be base clean itself.

[FlowerChild]

For every class BTW does not change the Forge needs to change/replae it instead, afaik. You can't mod minecraft in a way most mods do w/o changing stuff, thats simply not how prgramming works (and I doubt even in java you can call a method w/o telling the 'compiler' where it is). Iirc the forge consists mostly of hooks that let you acess classes and their methods so not everyone has to change the file themself which results in alot of conflicting classes with the same name but everyone having only a little bit diffrent code in it. So you only shift the problem to the forge which FC is a part of as well and hence would still be in a legal grey zone.

Yes, but no one claims ownership of the Forge. People can freely redistribute it at will. That's a pretty crucial difference.

[Haidaes]

Yes, but no one claims ownership of the Forge. People can freely redistribute it at will. That's a pretty crucial difference.

Still, someone had to distrubute the code in the first place and in case of the Forge still does. That person (at least) does share the code (even if he claims no ownership). I can't upload a movie/game either and tell everyone "it's not mine but here have it", thats still a copyright infringement. I'm assuming ofc you didn't rewrite the base classes from scratch to replace the onces of mojang. If you actually did that, then I'm at a loss and actual lawyers would be needed :).

The whole point is mood though anyway, as Notch and therefore Mojang do not discourage modding.

[FlowerChild]

Still, someone had to distrubute the code in the first place and in case of the Forge still does. That person (at least) does share the code (even if he claims no ownership). I can't upload a movie/game either and tell everyone "it's not mine but here have it", thats still a copyright infringement. I'm assuming ofc you didn't rewrite the base classes from scratch to replace the onces of mojang. If you actually did that, then I'm at a loss and actual lawyers would be needed :).

The whole point is mood though anyway, as Notch and therefore Mojang do not discourage modding.

What I'm saying is that there's really no argument against any claim of ownership on the mods themselves if they themselves aren't modifying the base-classes.

The mod download files are then completely separate from the mod code. The base-class mods are an entirely separate download which may be distributed freely. Any problem that people would have about modification of original MC files is thus with the API...not the mods themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I think the claim that base-class mods somehow negate ownership of a mod is total bull-shit. However, what I'm saying with the above, is that if a mod isn't even modifying base-classes, the argument can't even be made to begin with.

[Haidaes]

What I'm saying is that there's really no argument against any claim of ownership on the mods themselves if they themselves aren't modifying the base-classes.

The mod download files are then completely separate from the mod code. The base-class mods are an entirely separate download which may be distributed freely. Any problem that people would have about modification of original MC files is thus with the API...not the mods themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I think the claim that base-class mods somehow negate ownership of a mod is total bull-shit. However, what I'm saying with the above, is that if a mod isn't even modifying base-classes, the argument can't even be made to begin with.

Ah ok, I misunderstood you there, mostly because I assumed you all take credit for your work on the Forge.In case of the modders you are right of course and don't get me wrong either, I'm not saying it negates your claim of intelectual property, every line of code you wrote still is your own. I was just pointing out that someone is responsible for the API as well and even if every contributor denies any claim of it, the person to distribute it still could be held accountable for it, at least technically. Anyway, off to work ...

[Magmarashi]

Edit: Also real sicking that developers can be bought off like that. I guess no one has standards anymore.

Money talks, people who need money listen. I can't begrudge someone for listening to their income, and to the people that provide it. Customers are Customers. Which one do you listen to the most, the customers that leave a full tip or the ones that say you should be happy to get those pennies they left? Life is tough, and pride can be very costly.

[CreeperCommando]

Hmm... after cooling down a bit, I don't like to be mad while argumenting :)
Correct me if wrong, but if I remember correctly FCs concerns with modpacks mainly have to do with PR right?
The creators don't get the pat in the back they deserve and you add several degrees of freedom in terms of tech support. Wouldn't this be solved if the Forge community made their own official modpack + an appointed PR-site/forum.


Just like in fencing, you attack by stepping inwards/forwards.
This is only a wild shot so don't get crazy on me but I'd believe that this would be the best way for the Forge as a whole to stand against this kind of improper activities, as insulting a person while at the same time using his goodwill is NEVER OKAY!
Also with a separate forum (of course with the respective modders sections and inside that links to sep. mods) we get a much better control of PR/tech support.

In short it is to give a better feeding area for the mindless masses, avoiding further manhandling of intellectual/software properties.
Turning the Forge into a stronger force, not only an API but truly a real standard in the modding community, as we clearly can't any longer ignore the PR+accessibility aspect in this equation.
Plus maybe FC will warm up if we as part of the community are ready to give an extra arm, concerning PR-ing the swarms, anonymous or what have you, during this boiling point (exactly as last time this kind of sh*t happened).
Lastly, I believe even the yogscast wouldn't promote an illegal modpack over an official, especially if Notch had the chance to hear about this (Mojangs office is walking distance last time I checked).

It's only a suggestion, don't shoot me! *Hides under a nuke resistant rock...*



But that kake.. err whatever really is a bastard by both hypocrisy and ill intents, I thought it was obvious how he enjoyed the galore of those at SA picturing himself as the good guy and all the modders as assholes... what they said right back at them, that WAS THE BIGGEST selfstroking gay-orgy-masturbative sh*t I've seen. that guy did all but nada AND got the whole cake from them (and enjoyed every last crumb).............. anyone else had a bad sleep tonight?

[screally]

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Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but I would really like to know if the following was possible:

Some kind of user-interface - nothing fancy, just something nice and simple - which is attached to forge. It will allow unpacking and block-ID allocation of any forge mods that are downloaded.

I don't know if this is even possible, let alone even explained well, so I'll try illustrate it with an example:

First you download modloader/forge. Then you want to download BTW, so you save the .jar folder somewhere. Then you run the UI from forge which detects the .jar (perhaps because you have saved it into a specific place) which will then unpack it and place it in your minecarft folder for you.

This would allow mods to be downloaded and isntalled individually, encourage forge compatibility, and also let all the morans have an official way of having their 5 minutes of fun with each of the modpacks.

Yes I am aware this is not what forge does (honestly I am not personally 100% clued in on what it does, only a vague understanding), but it could be bundled on with forge since this will encourage forge use.

I think my question got a bit lost in there, but am still wondering about this

[turtles]

Why is the mod-pack such an issue? I know it was made without permission but couldn't someone just download the modes separately? Also Kakermix didn't claim the mods were his but is it how he acted about using the mods in the pack that is causing all this?

[Shengji]

Why is the mod-pack such an issue? I know it was made without permission but couldn't someone just download the modes separately?

The best and most detailed explanation is in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjd_7Ri4xI4

At around 2.30

[turtles]

Why is the mod-pack such an issue? I know it was made without permission but couldn't someone just download the modes separately?

The best and most detailed explanation is in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjd_7Ri4xI4

At around 2.30

Makes sense.

[Kwilt]

Not to start crossing streams again, and neither am I trying to start shit up again, but someone over on the SA forums did make a fairly excellent point a few minutes ago.

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I'm aware of the current situation. The situation seems to have turned out alright. I don't see how it invalidates anything I've said about the attitudes of the people involved, especially as KakerMix is still mocking the creator of one of the mods in his modpack and distributing that mod.

To extend the metaphor, KakerMix has now gone around and apologized to the various gift-givers, and given them a gift (perhaps greater in value than the one he took from them in the first place). However, he did so mostly because a lot of the neighbors were really pissed at him and were letting him know it. I'd be fairly content with that outcome, but it wouldn't change my perception of KakerMix as a selfish, entitled, shortsighted person. It certainly doesn't help that he's continuing to badmouth the only(?) person who wouldn't take KakerMix's gift.

Finally, for the record I think Flowerchild (the creator of BTW) is kind of an egotistical rear end in a top hat. This time, I think he's an egotistical rear end in a top hat who happens to be right.

I still seem to think it's funny that nobody wants to donate to FC to 'compensate' him (even though he doesn't use adf.ly in the first place) purely because it's not a good mod to be in the modpack. Which, quite frankly, wasn't his fault, since it was never intended to be in a modpack in the first place.

I do find it a tad bit queer, however, that you seem to be the only one any of them has a beef with, Flower. I guess some people just don't get along.

[Gilberreke]

- BTW is not a mod that plays together well with other mods, due to its reliance on balance of vanilla items. If other mods up the availability of those items, BTW quickly becomes useless in parts, over-powered in others.
- KakerMix doesn't like BTW, doesn't like FC
- FC is against mod packs

Can anyone give me the reason why BTW is in Technic Pack again?