Better Than Wolves Forum

FlowerChild wrote:Hehe...ok, self restraint required on my part. Way too easy not to take that last post as a dig at BTW/me and go off on the guy ;)

EDIT: Referring to Kahr's thread there, not this one here. Clarity fail :)

LOL. Startled me for a second, I thought you were displeased at being compared to Cthulhu ;p

EDIT: Which post are you talking about? Did the mods delete it, or am I just too tired to into reading comprehension?

Actually, may as well rant here to get it out: I just LOVE it when random players that have never made anything for the game pop up and refer to me as lazy for not using Forge, when I've spent the last two years busting my ass putting out a ton of free content. Also love that they don't get that the time I would spend on that is not time that I'd be spending lounging on a beech sipping fruify drinks, but is rather time I am otherwise devoting to the mod and putting out additional content.

It's just stellar.

BinoAl wrote:LOL. Startled me for a second, I thought you were displeased at being compared to Cthulhu ;p

Sorry man, I quickly realized how ambiguous and easily misinterpreted that statement was :)

EDIT: Oh, and in another clarity fail, this is the post I was referring to since "last post" will likely mean squat in a few hours:

Alright, I was just wondering if there was a way. I totally understand your point of view on the matter (most of which is indeed made up of fact instead of pretty words, unlike a lot of people I would see online who are just too lazy to do something and would rather hide it). Thank y very much for educating me on the matter. Keep up the good work.

FlowerChild wrote: EDIT: Oh, and in another clarity fail, this is the post I was referring to since "last post" will likely mean squat in a few hours:

Alright, I was just wondering if there was a way. I totally understand your point of view on the matter (most of which is indeed made up of fact instead of pretty words, unlike a lot of people I would see online who are just too lazy to do something and would rather hide it). Thank y very much for educating me on the matter. Keep up the good work.

Ah, ok. I'm not sure if it's just phrased oddly in the parenthesis, or if I'm just braindead right now, but somehow that just didn't register as being about you. Rereading it, though I get it. Durr.

BinoAl wrote:Ah, ok. I'm not sure if it's just phrased oddly in the parenthesis, or if I'm just braindead right now, but somehow that just didn't register as being about you. Rereading it, though I get it. Durr.

Yeah, the "lazy" bit is a common thing the Forge community like to throw around about my unwillingness to use it, so it's not uncommon to see people that can hardly string a few words together parroting that as a way to justify hating me for denying them their toys.

It's entirely ludicrous of course, but I've yet to have good opportunity to shoot it down for what it is in response :)

FlowerChild wrote: Yeah, the "lazy" bit is a common thing the Forge community like to throw around about my unwillingness to use it, so it's not uncommon to see people that can hardly string a few words together parroting that as a way to justify hating me for denying them their toys.

It's entirely ludicrous of course, but I've yet to have good opportunity to shoot it down for what it is in response :)

That's an odd way to go; I obviously know nothing of forge, I have no programming experience beyond some small scripting shit and a decent amount of PHP, but isn't forge supposed to make things easier, assuming it works as intended? No base class modding means easier updates to new versions, afaik. Either they're calling you lazy for doing more work, or insulting their own API

BinoAl wrote: That's an odd way to go

No, that part isn't odd, as adopting any new system into existing code will take more work than just using the system from the get go. You're basically porting to instead of just making use of an API.

Mr_Hosed wrote:@FC - I need to learn that dry humor doesn't come-off in text. At all.

Oh no, don't worry about it dude. Keep in mind, given what's been happening on twitter the past few days I'm in a very ranty mood right now. If you had brought up puppies, I probably could have ranted at length on the subject :)

I find it amusing that at least for 1.5 and older, installing forge causes my minecraft to take 5 minutes to load instead of the 5-10 seconds my slow and old comp normally takes with vMC or BTW. Some "efficient" programing that is.

Question though, I am totally clueless with anything java or minecraft code along with also being clueless about anything 1.6 until if and when BTW updates, what does forge actually do, don't they edit base classes at least pre 1.6? And what do they do now in 1.6?

Feel free to be as simple and blunt as possible, I've read enough programing books to at least understand in theory if I haven't actually programed or coded anything yet.

Please go back to earlier in the thread. I already made a statement about that (and yes cpw, I realize you're byte code injecting), and I'd prefer this thread to not turn into a programming Q&A.

In short, what they're doing is modifying the Minecraft code at run time instead of modifying the files directly (as I do), and basically trying to strong arm modders into doing the same (which is how this immediate conflict started). This obviously makes zero difference at any practical level, just complicates the process significantly, and cpw is proudly beating his chest claiming this represents adherence to Mojang's copyright while my point of view is that he's just as guilty as violating it as anyone else due to deobfuscating and reverse engineering Mojang's code (because at present, that's the only way you really can write mods for MC).

In other words, he's accomplished nothing with this other than create more problems for modders, give himself an excuse to bitch at them for not doing things his way (and discredit them if they don't), and further justify his own position within the community.

If you want more information on the technical side, please either consult the Forge code yourself, or ask someone more directly associated with the Forge about it. I am by no means an expert on it as I have a strong allergy to all things Forge related.

FlowerChild wrote:

BinoAl wrote: That's an odd way to go

No, that part isn't odd, as adopting any new system into existing code will take more work than just using the system from the get go. You're basically porting to instead of just making use of an API.

Oh no, I meant their insult of choice being lazy, I don't know enough of programming in general to judge on how anyone mods

BinoAl wrote:Oh no, I meant their insult of choice being lazy, I don't know enough of programming in general to judge on how anyone mods

Yes, I understood what you meant. You said it odd they call me lazy in not adopting Forge, when that tends to imply the Forge isn't easy to use.

I thus explained how porting an existing code-base is a whole other ball of wax than just using an API from the get go. The effort involved thus says nothing about how easy to use the API is.

Ok guys, I appreciate your curiosity, but can this be the last of the programming related questions/statements in this thread, especially from novice programmers? As has been stated many times in other threads on these forums, that stuff gets tiresome real quick.

Thanks FC, a general idea was all I was asking so I wasn't completely ignorant of that issue. I'll seek out more detailed info elsewhere later if needed, but with your brief explanation there it just seems morally wrong now.....more so than it already was.

Sarudak wrote:I say we all post our support.

Yeah, I just PM'd the guy the moment I read that post. Was going to thank him anyway for his continued support for BTW. Kahr seems like a really cool guy.

Its amazing that so far it seems he only got positive reactions to his decision. I wonder how long that will last... Are all the trolls sleeping?

I wouldn't call that amazing, since these posts there are mostly by Btw-Players.

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/149 ... ry23347253

cpw response arrived. It continously mentions that Mojang asked them to eliminate base class edits, wich surprises me a lot. It shows clearly that MC isn't run directly anymore by Notch. However, they haven't asked you yet, (or other base-class modders), and this makes me suspicious. If I were you, I would be even more willing to move to RTH.

EDIT: from twitter (too much stuff to link, go see it yourselves ;) ) it seems that Grum asked him to do that, and that it was public knowledge.

EDIT#2: confirmed: https://twitter.com/_grum/status/355669690481254400

And immediatly following that, the Forge fanboys start coming out, even mentioning FC by name, thus highjacking Kahr's thread with more dead horse beating... Lovely. I reported him for flamebaiting, so hopefully a mod will step in to stop it before Kahr's thread turns into a full on flamewar.

Thalarctia wrote:And immediatly following that, the Forge fanboys start coming out, even mentioning FC by name, thus highjacking Kahr's thread with more dead horse beating... Lovely. I reported him for flamebaiting, so hopefully a mod will step in to stop it before Kahr's thread turns into a full on flamewar.

Well, for now the situation looks calm, and I don't think that reporting cpw was a good decision. There is no baiting wathsoever in its post.

For how much I've gathered he's not evil or anything, and he truly thinks that he's doing the good decision. He just cannot see how his actions can be percieved negatively and forcing by others, like FC.

Also, I must add to my precedent post that if Mojang really wants no base class redistribution, they should ask everyone directly, like sp614x and FC. After all their ToU is pretty unclear, as it says that redistribution of base class is prohibited, but mods distribution is encouraged. This would require an API, an API that they are not making anytime soon, or other methods I'm not totally aware of (like cpw himself says). However it should be made clear by them immediatly if that's the case, because it's not easy for a modder to convert from a system to another.

cpw may be a pretty smart guy but he seems completely deluded on the scale of a pre olden days holy leader that eventually becomes a general of some god or another.

On a note since I had some free time before work as its kinda related to his piss poor programing, I decided to update for giggles so me and the girlfriend could give 1.6 vanilla lan a go so she could see the poor implementation of horses. vMC loaded just fine so I decided since I had the time to install forge to see if it fixed the 10+ minute mojang logo that my computer suffers this time around or not,......ye....3 BSODs during the mojang logo in half an hour each time a new profile with a fresh install, no thanks I'll stick to BTW.

Sage wrote:I don't think that reporting cpw was a good decision. There is no baiting wathsoever in its post.

I think he was referring to the fanboy, not cpw. And, the fanboy was definitely flamebaiting.

DreamsofFury wrote: On a note since I had some free time before work as its kinda related to his piss poor programing, I decided to update for giggles so me and the girlfriend could give 1.6 vanilla lan a go so she could see the poor implementation of horses. vMC loaded just fine so I decided since I had the time to install forge to see if it fixed the 10+ minute mojang logo that my computer suffers this time around or not,......ye....3 BSODs during the mojang logo in half an hour each time a new profile with a fresh install, no thanks I'll stick to BTW.

Yeah, I've got a decent rig (it was cutting edge about 2 years ago) and I've noticed that the forge instance I run on MultiMC takes nearly 2 minutes to load up. I have to wonder what benefits forge provides that warrants it loading so much crap as to increase the load time of minecraft by more than 1000%.

As a long-time lurker of the forums, I've been looking in on what's been going on here. Does anyone else find it really amusing how cpw changed over the course of the evening from "Base-class modding is the crappy way, our way is better" to "Yeah, I realize I'm creating huge amounts of problems for you, but I can't help it cause Mojang asked me to". Especially since Grum said in his tweet that he didn't ask.

@minecraftcpw @driesk007 @Dinnerbone Half-truth! All mods doing base-edits are in violation of the ToU. So yes, we'd prefer no base-edits.

He says, yeah we'd prefer no edits, but its not a new thing. The ToU haven't changed in ages, and cpw's asking like mojang called him up on the phone and said "Hey cpdubs, we've been talking about it, and we need you to stop using base classes kthxbai" It's really hilarious.

cpw is now sticking by his "Mojang told me to do it" position, but I think he's forgetting what started this all. It doesn't matter if Mojang forced him to comply, he was still trying to push his ideology upon the creator of Optifine. As far as I care, the Mojang excuse only works for him making the changes in the first place, not the actions he chose to pursue in vilifying the very notion of base class edits.

CrafterOfMines57 wrote:cpw is now sticking by his "Mojang told me to do it" position, but I think he's forgetting what started this all. It doesn't matter if Mojang forced him to comply, he was still trying to push his ideology upon the creator of Optifine. As far as I care, the Mojang excuse only works for him making the changes in the first place, not the actions he chose to pursue in vilifying the very notion of base class edits.

When the guy that supposedly asked you to stop modifying the .jar decides to speak up and call that a "half truth", you know you've made a mistake.

That was a very pleasant surprise for me to wake up to. I had been very suspicious of those statements he had been making, but was refraining from saying anything about it until now. Cpw's credibility just dropped substantially, as he's been saying Mojang *directly* asked him to do this left and right for weeks now.

So now we're back to him having caused all this trouble for modders based on a personal whim and to promote his own personal programming ideology.

Oh gods...the non-stop lolz. Cpw gets called a liar by Grum, and the Forge crowd is retweeting it all over the place somehow managing to interpret that as a win for their side.

Wow man. I never would have expected this when I turned in last night. It's gotten to the point where he's basically hanging himself with his own rope.

I must admit that I'm so used to being in a minority of one and feeling like I'm ranting at the air, that to have things turn so positively like this has me rather shocked.