What is BWF?

[XantyZon]

This is a little gem that my friend Meu found. (http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/forge.109356/)
I find lex to be very disrespectful of/to other modders. The attitude that all mods must be compatible with forge that he and the forge representatives have is just plain rude. I remember a time when modders of MC tried not to copy each other but now if you don't want your mod ripped off you're the bad guy. BWF is a perfect example of this; because FC said no to making it forge compatible FA/FS (and whoever else in in on it) decided to reproduce block by block FC's mod in a forge friendly package. To me besides being rude and disrespectful it is utterly pointless. All functions that BTW has, has already been replicated in a forge mod one way or another only bigger, better, faster, more, etc. BTW is a stand alone mod not because it is easy but because it is hard.

[dawnraider]

Wow. That is completely rediculous.

BTW is a stand alone mod not because it is easy but because it is hard.

I couldn't have said it better myself. And the above is why it is far better than any other mod out there.

[Ulfengaard]

This is a little gem that my friend Meu found.

I think I'm in love with feildmaster after reading the lock post.

[dawnraider]

Agreed. Finally a major figure in the MC community besides FC with their head on straight.

[DumbassTurtle]

Agreed. Finally a major figure in the MC community besides FC with their head on straight.

Predictably, cpw doesn't share those sentiments. https://twitter.com/minecraftcpw/status ... 0824527872

Yeah that's so uncompromising (no need to use a ten-dollar word) that they gave you links and told you how to go about what you needed to do...

Then if you read down the whole exchange, well...

@Hohounk gregtech changes mod behaviours in ways that go against the mod developer's wishes. as a modder, i would be very annoyed..

https://twitter.com/minecraftcpw/status ... 5320324096

The facepalm hurts as I had to do it so much.

[FlowerChild]

The facepalm hurts as I had to do it so much.

Hehe...nice find. Honestly, I think it'd be in his best interest to stay out of this as he doesn't seem to be very successful at representing either side in it.

Goebbels may want to have a chat with him and kindly ask him to stop trying to help.

[Thalarctia]

@Hohounk gregtech changes mod behaviours in ways that go against the mod developer's wishes. as a modder, i would be very annoyed..

https://twitter.com/minecraftcpw/status ... 5320324096

The facepalm hurts as I had to do it so much.

As far as gameplay go, GregTech is one of the very few mods/addons that try to combat the "fuster cluck" feeling of the larger modpacks by chaining the major mods into eachother to form a bigger tech tree - No different than Better With Renewables or the Hardcore Grinding mod we had. So apparantly expanding upon a modders ideas by adding extra challenge elements in order to create cohesion and further compatibility is a worse offense than copying their code line by line... Go figure.

[FlowerChild]

As far as gameplay go, GregTech is one of the very few mods/addons that try to combat the "fuster cluck" feeling of the larger modpacks by chaining the major mods into eachother to form a bigger tech tree - No different than Better With Renewables or the Hardcore Grinding mod we had. So apparantly expanding upon a modders ideas by adding extra challenge elements in order to create cohesion and further compatibility is a worse offense than copying their code line by line... Go figure.

Well, it's consistent in that they seem unconcerned with consistency both in terms of gameplay and their own principles :)

[Azradun]

Mattabase's stream was almost a month ago ... do you have any evidence that LexManos has done anything _at all_ involving BWF after that?

Evidence? Let's recap:

- Lex promoted the guy at large (by that stream)
- Lex claims to be the one to know the 'BWF' guy and having contact to him/her
- 'BWF' Twitter account (anonymous, of course) spews threats about releasing BWF, community poll to override FlowerChild's decision not to allow the distribution of BWF, and praises of Forge (not even subtle ones)

So basically, Lex is guilty at least not by doing something, but by NOT doing anything about it. He knows the true identity of 'BWF', has means to contact him, basically made him who he is (like promoted him in public!) - and now he allows his affiliate to repeatedly attack FC via a Twitter account :P He didn't even wrote on his twitter - 'I don't support this guy'. Nope. He just silently hopes that his previous video will show his support.

Lex is responsible from the moment he promoted BWF in public - any later actions by the BWF 'team' weigh directly on LexManos.
Example: if someone were to support and promote a business that chanced to be a fraud, and if he doesn't act to stop this business later, full knowing the circumstances, he is an accomplice.

Lex should just say to his friend to stay quiet.

[Azradun]

So basically Lex personally started this whole affair by a public promotion (an undisputed fact) and so he's directly responsible for whatever outcome it has.

Worse, he perfectly knew that BWF was in the wrong (copyright and all), and while the 'BWF guy' can claim ignorance of circumstances (he doesn't read the forums, etc. etc.), Lex just can't :) He made the move will full premeditation and knowing of consequences.

So is it ok to blame him and speculate about the full scope of his involvement? Perfectly.

[Deva]

So basically Lex personally started this whole affair by a public promotion (an undisputed fact)

Actually that is a disuputed fact as the person who was advertising it was themattabase (with lex being an ass on the stream) and the people who actually made it public (rather then just the 2-3 hundred people who watch Mattabase's stream) was the technic forums posting the log of flowerchild venting on the forge irc.

And the thing about disclosing the personal identity of the BWF two unethical actions dont make an ethical one essentially if the BWF guy wants to disclose his identity it is his prerogative noone else can/should do it for him.

[Gears]

So basically Lex personally started this whole affair by a public promotion (an undisputed fact)

Actually that is a disuputed fact as the person who was advertising it was themattabase (with lex being an ass on the stream) and the people who actually made it public (rather then just the 2-3 hundred people who watch Mattabase's stream) was the technic forums posting the log of flowerchild venting on the forge irc.

And the thing about disclosing the personal identity of the BWF two unethical actions dont make an ethical one essentially if the BWF guy wants to disclose his identity it is his prerogative noone else can/should do it for him.

Well, you gotta remember that Lexmanos was defending the guy, and was actually saying he talked with the BWF developer. Not to mention he was saying making the mod is a just action, and since he is one of the most persuasive forces in all the people involved, his actions would have definitely been drawing the most attention.

Now I'm not saying the other people involved didn't have any impact on the situation. However, without Lex's involvement with all of this the whole issue would have been way smaller. I mean, if LexManos said he was supporting X, Y or Z, you can safely assume that a large amount of people will start supporting it as well.

Now, as for the BWF developer himself, I'd definitely say that he's missing a few cards. Basically, what he's doing with his twitter is making it private, only allowing people who are pro-BWF to see it. Considering his last tweet I could read, he is all for people sharing their opinions on the issue so long as they are in compliance with his.

[Mr_Hosed]

As far as gameplay go, GregTech is one of the very few mods/addons that try to combat the "fuster cluck" feeling of the larger modpacks by chaining the major mods into eachother to form a bigger tech tree - No different than Better With Renewables or the Hardcore Grinding mod we had. So apparantly expanding upon a modders ideas by adding extra challenge elements in order to create cohesion and further compatibility is a worse offense than copying their code line by line... Go figure.

Well, it's consistent in that they seem unconcerned with consistency both in terms of gameplay and their own principles :)

I had a whole huge diatribe lambasting the idiocy of CPW's tweet, but FC summed that up perfectly. I'd just add that isn't the idea behind Forge is to give people to power to play mods built on it in anyway they want? So how is Gregtech any different then the More Bees mods or even Forestry itself? Atleast it's not a direct 1 for 1 copy of IC2 or BC.

[Azradun]

Actually that is a disuputed fact as the person who was advertising it was themattabase (with lex being an ass on the stream) and the people who actually made it public (rather then just the 2-3 hundred people who watch Mattabase's stream) was the technic forums posting the log of flowerchild venting on the forge irc.

You're wrong. Lex is the head of Forge. In marketing things, such as PR, there is no such thing as a stream for 200-300 people being not public.

I worked in a corporation before, as I mentioned, and they explicitly forbad a programmer who wanted to post his opinion on an obscure forum *as our programmer* to do so. Because, even if only a couple of people would see his text that conflicted with our company's policy, it would make open waters. Precisely as the issue with Lex/BWF did.

Also, you're twisting facts. Is mattabase stream private? Can anyone see it? I think so. I've seen some of their videos myself (not that I appreciate the ridiculous amounts of time required to view one). So it IS public. Another example: one guy I know warned a former employee that he will take issue to court, just because she started to tell about a 20 or 50 of people that he is a fraud (just out of spite for being fired for incompetence). Is that less than mattabase viewers according to you? Yes. Is that public? Yes, because those people tell other people etc. - so it was public slander. And thus warned, I heard she ceased to.

Another point: was it mattabase who advertised BWF, not Lex? Ok, so let's say Bill Gates appears on a national news station and talks about Linux killing children in Guatemala, FOR HOURS. Who is personally responsible for advertising this 'fact' (blatant lie)? Who is personally invested with this, and who lended his public face for its dissemination? Sure, the news station is also at fault for airing this, but the fault lies with the spokesperson, especially if it's a public figure (and LexManos being the head of Forge is a public figure in Minecraft community). Nobody forced Lex to do so.

Also, on the same IRC log, I've seen Slowpoke (yes the same one who claims he's neutral now) and Lex threatening FlowerChild that "he can't do anything about it", and "karma's a b***", heavily implying the whole matter was devised by Forge staff from the start :)

And the thing about disclosing the personal identity of the BWF two unethical actions dont make an ethical one essentially if the BWF guy wants to disclose his identity it is his prerogative noone else can/should do it for him.

Make that three unethical actions: just until a few days ago, BWF guy attacked FlowerChild and BTW community repeatedly on Twitter, hiding cowardly behind his anonimity. What sort of attack was that? Oh, just:
- personal attacks about FlowerChild's character
- blackmailing to release BWF anyway if FC ever leaves development of BTW
- continuing to make BWF public even when implicitly forbidden to by the mod maker
- distributing BWF to practically anyone who PMs BWF guy (he states he does distribute it to selected people who PM him, hint: supporters of BWF), despite it being unethical, and a ripoff

Now, the account is less public, but I bet those activities continue, especially the fourth one.

[Azradun]

Of course, if that was the BWF guy, and not just some troll. I was convinced so, but now I have some doubts:
- why is the real BWF guy silent then? I mean, if someone was impersonating him on Twitter, he should react. Had a few days, didn't
- making the account private would lend some credibility to 'BWF' being legit (a genuine troll would rather continue his work, thriving on opposition)

But if this the case, the BWF guy is in no way a benevolent entity of any kind. He believes that "information should be free", wants to have a poll to overthrow FlowerChild's copyright and ownership of his mod, and has no respect to him whatsoever. This smugness and sheer hipocrisy I find infuriating :P Moreso that people seem to swallow this bulls**t.

[Azradun]

Oh well, so it's the official stance of the BWF people:

http://pastebin.com/3YKGgDtR

http://t4nk.org/espernet/bwf/

So in fact, the 'BWF guy' is now officially a jerk who just wants to take someone else's work just because it's 'not against the law'. He's not misguided and innocent, he's full of ill will.

"[10:13pm] Andrew2448: No matter what either side does or says, they cant stop the other side from developing their mod
[10:13pm] Andrew2448: And because there are no broken laws or such, this can never be truly ended"

Sweet. So FULL of RESPECT.

[FlowerChild]

Oh well, so it's the official stance of the BWF people:

Can I ask why you're posting a chat log from close to a month ago?

[Azradun]

Oh well, so it's the official stance of the BWF people:

Can I ask why you're posting a chat log from close to a month ago?

Because I found it today and made the connection to the twitter account.

Edit: which gives more reason to twitter account being legit.

Edit2: ok, sorry for unearthing old things :P

[scooterdanny]

Just popping in, and wow, there seems to be a crap tonne of hate going on here, and to be frank, a lot of it looks self imposed. If one side hates on the other hate will come flying back. I have played just about every mod pack out there, and my opinion on the matter is... It's a game people. This is at most, IP. It's not like someone is stealing a product and diverting funds. About mattabase's stream. I did watch it, and what i saw was more an approach to creating a BTW that works with forge. because Btw is a great early tech mod (albeit a little silly in some regards) many players (including myself) would love it if we could get it implemented with other forge mods, Terrafirmacraft for example, would be great to have a compatibility layer with. As a modder, if someone did this with my work, i would be flattered rather than annoyed. I appreciate that you are trying to end the bickering between the two parties FC, by (in some sort) re-integrating with FML.
Sigh, i don't know, people get awful worked up about the mod scene. Tldr - Why the hate gentlemen (and ladies)?
I apologize if this appears offensive, as it was not meant to be by any stretch of the imagination.

[FlowerChild]

It's a game people.

I could say that about any aspect of your life.

"It's just your wife"

"It's just your kids"

"It's just your job"

"It's just your education"

"It's just life"

Ultimately, we assign our own importance to any aspect in life. In this case, this is a project I've poured a year and a half of my creative effort into, many people here having been right beside me through that ride, and I'll place the importance of that next to any aspect of your existence.

Personally, I'm an individual that has devoted pretty much his entire life to games as a medium, just like many others have done so with painting, literature, or film. If you can't understand why a person's passion and chosen trade would be important to them then you're either way too young and inexperienced to be part of a conversation like this, or are just plain ignorant.

Either way, I don't want anything to do with you. If the underlying premise of your argument is that my primary passion in life is meaningless and irrelevant, then "pffft" to you brother.

[muggsbud]

*inexperienced

I see what he's saying although i don't agree at all. I don't care how little something is, or how large it is; something that was meant to be offensive as BWF is still a horrible thing to do. I think that since day one FA has been out to insult FC, whether or not that was the primary goal. Just look at the names.

Even the smallest things that may not matter to you DO matter to others. It still hurts like hell to step on a lego.

EDIT: People get so worked up about the mod scene because other people put a lot of work into those mods. You may not realize how much until you find one and follow it from day one, or make one your self.

[FlowerChild]

I see what he's saying although i don't agree at all. I don't care how little something is, or how large it is; something that was meant to be offensive as BWF is still a horrible thing to do. I think that since day one FA has been out to insult FC, whether or not that was the primary goal. Just look at the names.

Sure, but I think anyone that would argue this is a small or insignificant issue with the "it's just a game" approach, really has no idea how much effort a project like BTW requires.

I've literally invested thousands of hours of my life into this mod. If I were of like mind that this is "just a game", believe me, you can be certain I would have been doing something else entirely.

Again: it's incredibly insulting to demean someone's labor of love in that way, and again, I could easily argue that any aspect of life, or anyone's passion, is ultimately irrelevant. Adopting a flippant and dismissive attitude towards someone's chosen trade is a sure way not to make friends.

And with regards to the issue at hand, creative control over what I am working on is of such a high priority to me that I was willing to invest those thousands of hours into doing it *unpaid* rather than within a commercial industry where I could never attain it. In other words, by this point I likely have 6 figures of lost revenue invested in this project because of how much that particular issue, and the one that's being directly assaulted by BWF, means to me.

If anyone would argue that's a small thing, they really just have no fucking clue.

[Sarudak]

This makes me curious what your game designer friends think of you not working professionally and instead spending all your time on a free mod...

[FlowerChild]

This makes me curious what your game designer friends think of you not working professionally and instead spending all your time on a free mod...

I think they alternate between thinking I'm insane or am some kind of folk hero :)

Most of them "get it" though, as I am certainly not alone in despising what the industry has been turning into. I've definitely gotten some pats on the back for having the balls to do something like this.

At one level or another I think most professional developers dream of "going indie". I am obviously taking the path less traveled in my approach to that, as it wasn't really my intention or plan when I started this, and it just kind of evolved organically from my original "six blocks to improve Minecraft" idea, but the concept is much the same.

Also, as I've mentioned before, the work I invest into it is certainly no less than if I had started my own game. I've gotten a few "holy shits" from professional developers when they take a look at the amount of content I've provided :)

[Sarudak]

That makes sense. I was imagining it to be between:

"You're crazy man"

and

"Man that's awesome I wish I could do that but I have the wife and house and car and kid-on-the-way."

kind of answers.

It's really amazing how far you've gone from your original idea and I hope it does turn into something that allows you to support yourself eventually. :)