Better Than Wolves Forum

Anglican wrote:FlowerChild, why did you decide to edit baseclasses in the first place? Was it just because you didn't like the idea of scavenging around looking for the right method in an API? Or was it something else.

That's not really a valid question. Almost all major mods need to edit base-classes to achieve the functionality they desire. The only reason that other mods don't *appear* to do so is because the Forge does is for them. In fact, that's pretty much the reason why the Forge (or Modloader for that matter) exist.

If you're not using a communal API then it rapidly becomes a necessity.

I've been following this conflict silently for some time now, but as a matter of conscience, it is important that I take the time to voice my support. I have been hesitant to do so both because I try to post only if I think what I have to say contributes positively to the discussion and because I do not feel particularly comfortable engaging with this community. However, this issue is important enough that I ought to say something regardless, even if it only amounts to a "me too!"

I think people who view this issue differently ought to ask themselves what kind of modding community they want to foster: One in which a mod-maker's prerogative is respected, or one in which it is not and the mod-player's desire is given primacy. The latter threatens to drive all creativity and innovation from the community, but more importantly, it deprives the mod-maker of something important which they have rightfully earned. Respect for the creation and the creator is a moral imperative in the context of a community of creators. It is the very foundation upon which the community's existence rests.

That being said, I have other concerns about aspects of this community and the MCF community. Without going into too much detail on my objection (as it will inevitably become a discussion of politics), I took issue with the use of the anti-date rape slogan and proposed imagery in the support banners because I take issue with the use of rape metaphors. Upon reading FlowerChild's initial banner request, I immediately tried to determine what I could do as an alternative that would be sufficient to get the message across, but I came up short on ideas and time as I started seeing banners with that message being created and used.

As a matter of principle, I prefer not to participate in forums where misogyny is tolerated or even encouraged, and it is difficult when this conflicts with other interests I may have. This is why I mostly only lurk here, as I still enjoy the mod and like to keep updated on its progress. I reported all instances of banners I saw which made use of the rape metaphor on MCF in the hopes that their standards were more in line with mine, not with the intent to silence the support movement, but with the hope that people would simply use an alternative banner and analogies to rape would not be so prominently featured in the discussion. At the time, this seemed like the best course of action I could take given my own motivations and desires, but I want to publicly make it clear: I am part of the support movement.

ziyakaz wrote:-snip-

While this might seem noble, your lack of dialogue on the matter before now as well as your lack of an acceptable alternative makes me suspect your motives. Plenty of us came up with other ideas, and if the knee-jerk reaction to opposing thought is to jam the report button in silence, I'm not sure that I can respect that.

Sorry, but the post just seems too self-serving. If you aren't contributing meaningfully to the discussion no matter which side you're on, you need to stay on the sidelines rather than reporting in the shadows.

ziyakaz wrote:As a matter of principle, I prefer not to participate in forums where misogyny is tolerated or even encouraged,

As do I. In fact, I absolutely do not tolerate any form of bigotry on these forums, as is well known by the community.

And with regards to the "no means no" slogan somehow being representative of misogyny, I'll just assume that like with most people that were making such an argument, you are trolling and attempting to divert attention away from the very real issues here by focusing on something extraneous to them. If anyone were to seriously believe such a line of rubbish and is incapable of understanding the concept of a metaphor not equating to a direct comparison, then the only response I have for them is:

"Grow up".

Either way, you're not welcome here.

FlowerChild wrote: "Grow up".

I concur. I dare say the main catalyst in the community in this mess has been the lack of a mature and ability to forming individual opinions. You might be a bit of a dick sometimes FC, and can follow a pretty hard line but funnily enough that is what has made your mod great. It is only fair for your creative works to be given the Respect and protection it deserves. I believe that Games is a form of art, and a mod is no different.

I really hope all of these people comparing this to the date-rape campaign really are trolling. If they are serious, then i clearly have far too much faith in peoples sensibility.

@ziyakaz: Using words which can be interpreted as rape analogies for instances of "One/a group using force/power to gain what one wants" must not meant that the interpretation as such is intentional.

OK.. this has been discussed to death and since even I as a not native English speaker can get the difference between "making fun of rape" and "using a sentence that is also used in discussions about rape" I see no point in giving this any more clarification.

I want to say right off the bat that I support Forge, not what is being done with BWF, but I support the ideas of Forge in the way that it tries to bring the community together under one common API (perhaps not all of the methods the Forge team has chosen to use in order to do so). I see what is being done with BWF as such a contradiction to everything that it is supposed to be about, and overall this situation seems very similar (albeit with less recipients) to the Technic one that arose a while back; the creative rights of certain people are being encroached upon for the point of compatibility. With that having been said, I ask this not for the purpose of debate, but rather for personal interest, FlowerChild if FlowerAdult had approached you before this started (utilizing a more tasteful name) and said something along the lines of "I highly respect your mod, and I want to expose as many people as possible to it, can I have permission to do a complete port of BTW over to a Forge compatible format using your textures and future ideas should any additions be made to BTW, assuming full responsibility for BWF, and giving full credit to you?", would you have given permission?

CrafterOfMines57 wrote:I want to say right off the bat that I support Forge, not what is being done with BWF, but I support the ideas of Forge in the way that it tries to bring the community together under one common API (perhaps not all of the methods the Forge team has chosen to use in order to do so). I see what is being done with BWF as such a contradiction to everything that it is supposed to be about, and overall this situation seems very similar (albeit with less recipients) to the Technic one that arose a while back; the creative rights of certain people are being encroached upon for the point of compatibility. With that having been said, I ask this not for the purpose of debate, but rather for personal interest, FlowerChild if FlowerAdult had approached you before this started (utilizing a more tasteful name) and said something along the lines of "I highly respect your mod, and I want to expose as many people as possible to it, can I have permission to do a complete port of BTW over to a Forge compatible format using your textures and future ideas should any additions be made to BTW, assuming full responsibility for BWF, and giving full credit to you?", would you have given permission?

Hell no. It would take a *huge* degree of trust in an individual for me to allow someone to do that with my work, so much trust in fact that I don't think I've met a single person in my life to whom I would grant such permission. Thus, "random guy contacting me on the internet" certainly doesn't live up to that.

And BTW...I support the *concept* behind the Forge as well. Hence why I was one of the founding members behind it.

Gears wrote:My server's turned supporting you into a sport by setting up a archery range with a row of LexManos' heads on fence posts.

Spoiler

Show

Now in the spirit of BTW can you make it automated so that it shoots arrows at his head every time a wolf excretes its precious dung (with the dung preferably also landing on his head)?

Pucc wrote: Now in the spirit of BTW can you make it automated so that it shoots arrows at his head every time a wolf excretes its precious dung (with the dung preferably also landing on his head)?

Heh, I wish. Unfortunately there are incompatibilities between BTW and my skyblock mod. I'd try to work around it, but that would either piss off flowerchild with me looking at his code and/or me cutting back on features in my mod, neither of which are really pleasant.

Not to mention some of the hardcore modes make skyblock gameplay difficult if not impossible.

Gears wrote:

Pucc wrote: Now in the spirit of BTW can you make it automated so that it shoots arrows at his head every time a wolf excretes its precious dung (with the dung preferably also landing on his head)?

Heh, I wish. Unfortunately there are incompatibilities between BTW and my skyblock mod. I'd try to work around it, but that would either piss off flowerchild with me looking at his code and/or me cutting back on features in my mod, neither of which are really pleasant.

Not to mention some of the hardcore modes make skyblock gameplay difficult if not impossible.

Hardcore Buckets for one. ahaha.

"Ice blocks... great"

Kombucha wrote:

Gears wrote:

Pucc wrote: Now in the spirit of BTW can you make it automated so that it shoots arrows at his head every time a wolf excretes its precious dung (with the dung preferably also landing on his head)?

Heh, I wish. Unfortunately there are incompatibilities between BTW and my skyblock mod. I'd try to work around it, but that would either piss off flowerchild with me looking at his code and/or me cutting back on features in my mod, neither of which are really pleasant.

Not to mention some of the hardcore modes make skyblock gameplay difficult if not impossible.

Hardcore Buckets for one. ahaha.

"Ice blocks... great"

That should change after the next release - FC's making it so that ice that can melt and ice that can't will have different metadata. Just make the starting ice the stuff that melts and you're set.

Enough with the off-topic guys. Thanks.

ziyakaz wrote:"snip"

Just because "No means No" has been used in anti-rape ads doesn't mean that it exclusively belongs to it. Whether you're a female, man or sheep, when you say "no" it means "NO". When you tell some one no and they do it any way that generally ends in some one being hurt or pissed off.

Apologies this was an off topic post.

XantyZon wrote:

ziyakaz wrote:"snip"

Just because "No means No" has been used in anti-rape ads doesn't mean that it exclusively belongs to it. Whether you're a female, man or sheep, when you say "no" it means "NO". When you tell some one no and they do it any way that generally ends in some one being hurt or pissed off.

You have no idea how confused i was when people compared "no means no" with rape *somehow*.

It's a common phrase over here to express you're not gonna change your mind, arguing over it is pointless and it's simply not gonna happen.

which is, as far as i know, PRECISELY what it's supposed to mean...

ziyakaz wrote:
That being said, I have other concerns about aspects of this community and the MCF community. Without going into too much detail on my objection (as it will inevitably become a discussion of politics), I took issue with the use of the anti-date rape slogan and proposed imagery in the support banners because I take issue with the use of rape metaphors.

"No means no" is not exclusively about rape. Let me tell you a story.

I am a person with a severe phobia of flying. In my latest company, I was required to fly 15 hours from Poland to America, which was a torture for me. Only those with phobias can understand what being subjected to one against your will for 15 hours straight does. Yet after one flight and return, my "understanding", "compassionate", "human" American managers (both men and women) forced me to fly again and again afterwards, and I had to do a battle with them to avoid that, which frankly costed me a promotion. And a lot, lot lot of stress. I have invested countless allnighters to that company so it was very unjust and foolish to leave, so I didn't. But they couldn't take it into their thick minds that "no means no". They just wanted to torture me :)

So please do not insult people by saying that "No means no" is exclusively about rape and using it somewhere else is misogyny. "No means no" applies to ANY situation where one party (be they men or women) tries to force the other into something they either don't want or is dangerous/harmful for them.

Open your mind.

Edit: live=leave

It's all about context, metaphors and most likely people who didn't listen in their language/literature lessons at school. What is annoying and I see it everywhere is when people remove a phrase or sentence out of the context it was originally intended for and wrap another around it to suit there argument (pretty much whats happening here) but what's even more irritating is that people like the forum moderators over at mcf have the inability to see this happening, which brings me back to my first sentence.

Who even brought this rape analogy up? I pretty sure it was a pro-forge guy.

Just saw Lex's Sig on the MCF. Did he set that himself? (One of the fight against forge banners).

You made my day, man. Damn it, do you have mercy? I almost died laughing.
Lex vs...Lex?

Can't say he doesn't have good taste. Love that borg banner.

Stormweaver wrote:Can't say he doesn't have good taste. Love that borg banner.

Me too. That reminds me...

cpw wrote: Me too. That reminds me...

cpw, we seem to have gotten along civilly in the past, so I'm going to ask you:

It seems likely that Lex is co-opting one of our banners in an attempt to mock my stance on BWF. Are you sure you want to be part of that?

FlowerChild wrote:cpw, we seem to have gotten along civilly in the past, so I'm going to ask you:

It seems likely that Lex is co-opting one of our banners in an attempt to mock my stance on BWF. Are you sure you want to be part of that?

Seems he's happy and willing to do the same - IronChests on MCF (cpw's banner in signature of OP)

Ozziie wrote:

FlowerChild wrote:cpw, we seem to have gotten along civilly in the past, so I'm going to ask you:

It seems likely that Lex is co-opting one of our banners in an attempt to mock my stance on BWF. Are you sure you want to be part of that?

Seems he's happy and willing to do the same - IronChests on MCF (cpw's banner in signature of OP)

........ cant tell if trolling or supporting........ ugh i wish i knew his motives here [/sarcasm]