Can we tone the Notch-Bashing down please?

[Urian]

I think Oblivion or Fallout 3 would definitely be my favorite RPG's though. I don't think DA can hold a candle to either of those.

I don't count Fallout 3 as an RPG although it's one of my favorite games (I'd say it's an FPS/RPG hybrids - a genre that also contains another of my favorite games; Deus Ex, a game I re-installed today and have been playing for some 4 hours straight before posting this), although Fallout 1 and 2 are definitively other candidates for my choice of best RPG. I never really liked Oblivion, there were just too many things that I felt you needed mods for to make it good.

[Fracture]

I want war incarnate.

"War incarnate" would not be one dude with a rocket launcher just blowing the fuck out of everything. It would be death en mass, on both sides of the conflict, chaos, and a general all-around fast-paced twitch-reflex mixture of terror, excitement and blood lust.

I tried the demo, and tbh, if I want to play one-man-army games I'll stick to Halo and GoW. Both actually make you work and think to be a killing machine. Space Marine just makes you button-mash so that everything dies. It's not really game, in my opinion, more like a mildly interactive cutscene of things dying.

@FC Gonna get Skyrim?

[FlowerChild]

I don't count Fallout 3 as an RPG although it's one of my favorite games

Fair enough. The genre lines do tend to get rather blurry in a lot of modern games. Perhaps "action-RPG" (like Diablo) would be a more appropriate description for Oblivion and Fallout 3.

"War incarnate" would not be one dude with a rocket launcher just blowing the fuck out of everything. It would be death en mass, on both sides of the conflict, chaos, and a general all-around fast-paced twitch-reflex mixture of terror, excitement and blood lust.

Yup, I agree with you 100% here. I think it would be way cooler to just be one dude in a much larger conflict than your typical action-hero. I think that approach is particularly suited to the 40K franchise in a universe where pretty much everyone is expendable and where the Space Marines are basically brain-washed to not give a damn about their own lives. To me, the 40K universe is not really one of heroes, but more one of varying degrees of villains. No one is particularly nice or heroic. At best, they're fanatics and general nut-jobs hell-bent on killing each other. That moral ambiguity is part of the reason I so love that franchise. Again, I think that cut-scene I linked earlier captures the feel of what I'd like a 40K action game to be like.

This is a general preference with me and games though. I've been saying for about 20 years (I think I first said it after playing the first X-Wing), that if I'm going to play a Star Wars game, I'd much rather be some faceless dude in the battle of Hoth, or the Battle for the Death Star, instead of Luke Skywalker, and let my own actions determine how much of a hero I turn out to be. To me, that's playing more to the strength of games as an interactive medium rather than trying to fit a round peg into a square hole and try to turn them into a movie.

@FC Gonna get Skyrim?

Yeah, it's almost certain that if they don't somehow completely blow it that I'll definitely play it at some point.

I still haven't played Fallout: Vegas though, so I've still got a bit of a back-log in the RPG department. I often put-off playing them until I know I won't mind losing a month of my life ;)

[Urian]

I'm currently looking into games that will take up a chunk of time for me. I believe that I might have passed my final exam in Uni last week and should be getting me masters degree within a couple of months (unless there are some courses I've overlooked) and my roommate moved to France today so I can be asocial when at home :p

[Brethern]

I want war incarnate.

"War incarnate" would not be one dude with a rocket launcher just blowing the fuck out of everything. It would be death en mass, on both sides of the conflict, chaos, and a general all-around fast-paced twitch-reflex mixture of terror, excitement and blood lust.

I tried the demo, and tbh, if I want to play one-man-army games I'll stick to Halo and GoW. Both actually make you work and think to be a killing machine. Space Marine just makes you button-mash so that everything dies. It's not really game, in my opinion, more like a mildly interactive cutscene of things dying.

@FC Gonna get Skyrim?

Halo isn't a one man army game. Last time I checked if you tried to charge into a group of covenant soldiers you get your ass handed to you.

GoW is the same way. You don't use cover you die. In terms of button mashing I don't give a flying fuck, it's bloody gory and I don't have to remember up down left right b a in order to do crap move number 4. It's a game about killing as much as possible as fast as possible.

Therefore it's good.

[Haidaes]

Besides kick ass trailers, Dragon Age: Origins is one of my favorite RPGs. Too bad that DA2 didn't live up to the quality of its predecessor.

Yeah, I really like Dragon Age as well. I never tried the sequel though.

I think Oblivion or Fallout 3 would definitely be my favorite RPG's though. I don't think DA can hold a candle to either of those.

Nah I don't know. I for one had fun with all of them but each had it's downsides.

Dragon Age (1+2) had a great story, but the gameplay just doesn't match open world titels. Those tunnel levels, especially the ones of DA2 are simply horrible, but the character development along with the interesting companions made up for that, even though the gameplay was dumbed down alot because of the console market (the real problem today imho). But I'd take the dialogues and story telling of DA over Oblivion/Fallout's anytime. I guess I would play these titels for their story alone (so much for story dosn't matter).

Oblivion on the other hand had a piss poor main quest, but great sidequests which were the real incentive to play the game over and over again (that and modding the shit out of it). Descisions didn't matter though (the two that were there), which was something I disliked immensly. The whole fighting though was not that great, especially when it comes to magic. Most first person rpgs just don't get the magic part right. Selfmade spells don't help alot in that regard either, because having 5 kinds of ball spells but no elemental specials (firewalls, ice spikes, thunderstrikes etc.) just takes the fun out of it. Doing the same melee attack over and over again is not revolutionary either. A more action-arcade approach might have worked better for me.

Fallout is probably the best when it comes to gameplay. The story was bearable but wasn't the driving force behind my playthroughs, the game was great because of thethe gameplay with all the stuff to discover, the countless side quests and lets admit it, the ranged combat ála first person shooter just works perfectly fine for the game. I'd say the same about masseffect but that game lacks the freedom of open world games again but has the companion part.

There is a reoccuring theme here ;).
Bioware = Great story and characters, shitty world design.
Bethesda = Great open world gameplay, medicore story, allowed modding in the past (they canceled it for skyrim, right ?).

Btw, when it comes to cinematics then the ones of all the diffrent warcraft games still give me the shivers. I guess it kinda depends on how much you are into a certain "universe". Gears of wars did nothing for me in the regard.

[Mrchaim]

Heh, this thread went interesting places over night.

One the space-marine game: I've not yet played it here, so my opinion is probably a bit suspect, but it ceartinly does not look impressive as far as a 3rd person action game goes. When it comes to those, I've got two games i compare them against - Devil May Cry 4 (The only one i've been able to play from that franchise as it's on PC), and the Monster Hunter series.

Devil May Cry is probably the more relevant one to bring up in this case - It's a game about taking on the hordes of hell, and doing it like a freaking badass - heck, it's inehrent in how the games style meter works which is where large amounts of your end of level score come from - You can just spam the same most effective move over and over, but that looses you style fast. The game instead wants you to learn and use as many flashy and over the top moves as possible, to stop and taunt in the middle of a pack of foes, and generally comeptly crank up the badassery.

...And once you get good at this, it's entirely possible to do this - There's a shocking amount of cleverly hidden little interactions I've found playing it - the ability to pary a Faust's claw swings with Nero's own sword swings, or the way that nero's L3 shot causes an explosion after several seconds - Letting you do tricks like shoot something, start a taunt, and then complete the taunt as your target explodes. Dante can also get up to similar antics, such as the rose he can throw with Lucifer doing no damage but knocking a target skyhigh - prime time to catch them with an aerial combo, or the ilk.

Back to space marine though - What especially jumped out at me was this: In Space Marine, there does not seem to be any good reason to dodge in the game - your health and your shields regenerate i think?, so so long as you keep on stabbing things fast, there's no real reason to worry about getting hurt (all going by video footage here). In otherwords, there's not really any need to worry about your health as a long term resource in the game.

Contrast Devil May Cry - You take damage if you get hit, and while you can carry healing items, that's not the reason to avoid getting hit. Instead, getting hit seriously screws up your style meter. Conversely, perfectly timed dodges actually give you style - once again reinforcing the "Damn, i'm badass" that the game pushes.

To add another game in that pushes the not getting hit angle - Monster Hunter. For those who've not played it, the game is basically all boss fights - your tiny human character vs Wyverns and T-rexs that breath fire and other things. It's also very hard - and very popular in japan, with the most recent entry selling something crazy like 2 million copies in two weeks (I think it's total sales are up at 4 million now).

So immediately straight off, you can probably guess that you dont want to get hit because in MH because it hurts. A lot. Yes, there's healing items - but all of those have a long animation to use, meaning that you'll probably be leaving yourself open for another attack. And if you run off to another area, it potentially gives the monster time to run off itself, letting it recover stamina or the ilk which is simply going to make it harder to fight. Even the short term, getting hit usually means your character going flying across the area and having to pick themselves up - so you wont be doing damage. You also build up fatigue for taking hits, and too much of that results in your character getting stunned - Which once again, leaves them open for another attack.

...But if you can pull off the dodges (which have a very small amount of invincibility frames), you can look incredibly awesome - down to some of the best players I've seen doing stuff like completely ignoring wearing any armor and then taking on huge wyverns naked -and proceeding to never get hit, to do things roll through a monster's roar (which is insane and awesome), and just curb stomp them.

Or to put this in a short form: Just from the dodge mechanics alone, DMC4 & Monster Hunter both allow for high levels of player skill to be the deciding factor - and when it is, things look absolute amazing. So far, I'm simply not seeing that from the videos I've seen of space marine.

[Brethern]

Heh, this thread went interesting places over night.

One the space-marine game: I've not yet played it here, so my opinion is probably a bit suspect, but it ceartinly does not look impressive as far as a 3rd person action game goes. When it comes to those, I've got two games i compare them against - Devil May Cry 4 (The only one i've been able to play from that franchise as it's on PC), and the Monster Hunter series.

Devil May Cry is probably the more relevant one to bring up in this case - It's a game about taking on the hordes of hell, and doing it like a freaking badass - heck, it's inehrent in how the games style meter works which is where large amounts of your end of level score come from - You can just spam the same most effective move over and over, but that looses you style fast. The game instead wants you to learn and use as many flashy and over the top moves as possible, to stop and taunt in the middle of a pack of foes, and generally comeptly crank up the badassery.

...And once you get good at this, it's entirely possible to do this - There's a shocking amount of cleverly hidden little interactions I've found playing it - the ability to pary a Faust's claw swings with Nero's own sword swings, or the way that nero's L3 shot causes an explosion after several seconds - Letting you do tricks like shoot something, start a taunt, and then complete the taunt as your target explodes. Dante can also get up to similar antics, such as the rose he can throw with Lucifer doing no damage but knocking a target skyhigh - prime time to catch them with an aerial combo, or the ilk.

Back to space marine though - What especially jumped out at me was this: In Space Marine, there does not seem to be any good reason to dodge in the game - your health and your shields regenerate i think?, so so long as you keep on stabbing things fast, there's no real reason to worry about getting hurt (all going by video footage here). In otherwords, there's not really any need to worry about your health as a long term resource in the game.

Contrast Devil May Cry - You take damage if you get hit, and while you can carry healing items, that's not the reason to avoid getting hit. Instead, getting hit seriously screws up your style meter. Conversely, perfectly timed dodges actually give you style - once again reinforcing the "Damn, i'm badass" that the game pushes.

To add another game in that pushes the not getting hit angle - Monster Hunter. For those who've not played it, the game is basically all boss fights - your tiny human character vs Wyverns and T-rexs that breath fire and other things. It's also very hard - and very popular in japan, with the most recent entry selling something crazy like 2 million copies in two weeks (I think it's total sales are up at 4 million now).

So immediately straight off, you can probably guess that you dont want to get hit because in MH because it hurts. A lot. Yes, there's healing items - but all of those have a long animation to use, meaning that you'll probably be leaving yourself open for another attack. And if you run off to another area, it potentially gives the monster time to run off itself, letting it recover stamina or the ilk which is simply going to make it harder to fight. Even the short term, getting hit usually means your character going flying across the area and having to pick themselves up - so you wont be doing damage. You also build up fatigue for taking hits, and too much of that results in your character getting stunned - Which once again, leaves them open for another attack.

...But if you can pull off the dodges (which have a very small amount of invincibility frames), you can look incredibly awesome - down to some of the best players I've seen doing stuff like completely ignoring wearing any armor and then taking on huge wyverns naked -and proceeding to never get hit, to do things roll through a monster's roar (which is insane and awesome), and just curb stomp them.

Or to put this in a short form: Just from the dodge mechanics alone, DMC4 & Monster Hunter both allow for high levels of player skill to be the deciding factor - and when it is, things look absolute amazing. So far, I'm simply not seeing that from the videos I've seen of space marine.

In DMC you are killing helspawn in space marine you're killing orks with a chainsaw wearing 1300 LB's of armor. The DMC combat mechanic works great I like it for that game.

In space marine your health only regenerates when you perform an execution on a enemy. You do have a recharging bar, it's you're armor systems I think. But it does not last long in combat. Against basic boyz you drain your bolter and then mop up with your chainsword. Against nobs you have to either kite with the bolter or rush in slash and then dodge.

Back to DMC you're not wearing any armor It's also a game focused around your sword. There fore the combat is more fluid and not button mashing.

In space marine you're a 1300 pound seven foot tall walking tank. Who uses guns and melee weapons. and fights against foes who will fight at range or in melee. Really does style matter? I prefer movies and games where I can watch two sides charge each other and then collide. the 1v1 fight doesn't appear to me I want action and I want bloodshed.

And to be fair comparing DMC to SM isn't right. Relic doesn't make shooters or action games they mostly make RTS games.

And finally It's already been said that you're using a fully automatic rocket launcher. And you're hitting things with a freakin chainsaw. Does it have to be pretty.

[Fracture]

Halo isn't a one man army game. Last time I checked if you tried to charge into a group of covenant soldiers you get your ass handed to you.

GoW is the same way. You don't use cover you die. In terms of button mashing I don't give a flying fuck, it's bloody gory and I don't have to remember up down left right b a in order to do crap move number 4. It's a game about killing as much as possible as fast as possible.

Therefore it's good.

Yeah, Halo kinda is. Your marines are next to useless, and the ODSTs only marginally less so. Being able to charge into your enemies and senselessly rape everything at once does not a one-man-army make. That's a bad game. A good one-man-army game requires you to have tactics and skill, but it's still one of you taking out hundreds of thousands of enemies.

GoW-- same thing. You don't wipe out everything at a glance, and you're not that hard to kill-- but there's at MOST 4 of you at any given point against endless hordes of sometimes huge enemies.

Up down left right kick style games are 1v1 fighters, whereas a good shooter is knowing when to use what. You switch between two, sometimes three weapons, conserve your ammo, grenade when need be. Indefinitely spamming overpowered weapons with no regard for tactics again makes a game which is no different in any way from the thousands of similar and crappy games.

If you want blood and gore with no effort involved, go rent a horror movie. That isn't a game, it's a barely interactive gore-fest, and has no real place among actual games.

@Haidaes: Bethesda is totally reworking the magic system for Skyrim, rather than selectively moving it over from Morrowind like they did for Oblivion. Melee combat is also being seriously worked over. Trust me-- Bethesda listens to the fans, and to the modders. They're changing a lot of the stuff people hated. The mainstream quests aren't bad, really, but they're certainly a secondary factor.

And I have heard nothing about them canceling modding for Skyrim. It would be dumb as fuck for them to do so, as it's a huge part of what keeps people interested in the game, and by extension, the franchise. And with new games released so infrequently, they NEED something there to hold their players.

[Brethern]

Halo isn't a one man army game. Last time I checked if you tried to charge into a group of covenant soldiers you get your ass handed to you.

GoW is the same way. You don't use cover you die. In terms of button mashing I don't give a flying fuck, it's bloody gory and I don't have to remember up down left right b a in order to do crap move number 4. It's a game about killing as much as possible as fast as possible.

Therefore it's good.

Yeah, Halo kinda is. Your marines are next to useless, and the ODSTs only marginally less so. Being able to charge into your enemies and senselessly rape everything at once does not a one-man-army make. That's a bad game. A good one-man-army game requires you to have tactics and skill, but it's still one of you taking out hundreds of thousands of enemies.

GoW-- same thing. You don't wipe out everything at a glance, and you're not that hard to kill-- but there's at MOST 4 of you at any given point against endless hordes of sometimes huge enemies.

Up down left right kick style games are 1v1 fighters, whereas a good shooter is knowing when to use what. You switch between two, sometimes three weapons, conserve your ammo, grenade when need be. Indefinitely spamming overpowered weapons with no regard for tactics again makes a game which is no different in any way from the thousands of similar and crappy games.

If you want blood and gore with no effort involved, go rent a horror movie. That isn't a game, it's a barely interactive gore-fest, and has no real place among actual games.

@Haidaes: Bethesda is totally reworking the magic system for Skyrim, rather than selectively moving it over from Morrowind like they did for Oblivion. Melee combat is also being seriously worked over. Trust me-- Bethesda listens to the fans, and to the modders. They're changing a lot of the stuff people hated. The mainstream quests aren't bad, really, but they're certainly a secondary factor.

And I have heard nothing about them canceling modding for Skyrim. It would be dumb as fuck for them to do so, as it's a huge part of what keeps people interested in the game, and by extension, the franchise. And with new games released so infrequently, they NEED something there to hold their players.

Funny,

The marines are useless because bungee wanted to make you into the hero of the game the guy who does everything. Quake 2 was like that So was quake 4, COD, doom, alien vs predator etc etc etc.

Tell me why in any of those games are you the only one to make it? You aren't anymore armored of skilled than your comrades? It's story telling.

As for Gears, my definition of a one man army is someone who does not need a rock to hide behind to kill baddies. To my knowledge in gears your squad is better trained than the locust.

[Mrchaim]

Brethren - I'm really confused at the point your trying to make.

I mean, having just finished the demo? Ye gods, what a mess. That game cant tell if it wants to be a third person shooter or a third person melee game - And it's not particularly great at either. The really glaring thing to me, playing through on hard, is for the several times i died, i had no way to really tell what got me other than "lots of damage" - Not only would my screen be full of horrible "You're dying!" effects (Thank you game, i am of course, totally incapalbe of looking at my own health ba- oh wait) but in general what i was facing was simply just visual noise - nothing to really differnate it from the background or make it clear that i died to "Orks doing X" or "maybe i shoudlnt do Y next time".

Conversely, there wasn't really anything for me to improve on skill wise - No combos to master other than "do i hit the F key now?", no real way to start mixing it up other than "keep hitting the fire/attack button" - Which is pretty pants for a 3rd person action game. There's just no DEPTH to it - all sound and fury, but no actual delicious game cake to eat.

[Fracture]

Funny,

The marines are useless because bungee wanted to make you into the hero of the game the guy who does everything. Quake 2 was like that So was quake 4, COD, doom, alien vs predator etc etc etc.

Tell me why in any of those games are you the only one to make it? You aren't anymore armored of skilled than your comrades? It's story telling.

As for Gears, my definition of a one man army is someone who does not need a rock to hide behind to kill baddies. To my knowledge in gears your squad is better trained than the locust.

You make it because your character is more powerful than the opponents, numerous as they are, and the rest falls to player skill. You're protected against simply dying by chance, so the rest is up to you. Actual war games, you die by chance all the time. nearby grenade or rocket, stray bullets-- they kill you with ease. OMA games protect you from that, but you'll still fall easily to sustained fire or an unnoticed enemy, so you still have to take cover and keep track of foes.

COD is not a one-man army game, and you don't often do much better than your comrades. You would not survive, most often, without them. The parts where it's just you are almost all stealth, or a great deal of finding isolated opponents.

As for GoW-- you're better trained than your enemies, but you're not invincible. As I said-- a good OMA game makes you think and forces you to be skilled to defeat everything solo or with a small team. A bad OMA game, like Space Marine, lets you violently destroy everything around you with neither effort nor thought.

[Brethern]

Brethren - I'm really confused at the point your trying to make.

I mean, having just finished the demo? Ye gods, what a mess. That game cant tell if it wants to be a third person shooter or a third person melee game - And it's not particularly great at either. The really glaring thing to me, playing through on hard, is for the several times i died, i had no way to really tell what got me other than "lots of damage" - Not only would my screen be full of horrible "You're dying!" effects (Thank you game, i am of course, totally incapalbe of looking at my own health ba- oh wait) but in general what i was facing was simply just visual noise - nothing to really differnate it from the background or make it clear that i died to "Orks doing X" or "maybe i shoudlnt do Y next time".

Conversely, there wasn't really anything for me to improve on skill wise - No combos to master other than "do i hit the F key now?", no real way to start mixing it up other than "keep hitting the fire/attack button" - Which is pretty pants for a 3rd person action game. There's just no DEPTH to it - all sound and fury, but no actual delicious game cake to eat.

It fits it's purpose perfectly.

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

[darahalian]

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

[Fracture]

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

This. No skill means no replay value, which in turn means wasted money.

[Brethern]

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

This. No skill means no replay value, which in turn means wasted money.

TL.net seems to like it.

Therefore My opinion hasn't changed.

[Damion Rayne]

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

This. No skill means no replay value, which in turn means wasted money.

TL.net seems to like it.

Therefore My opinion hasn't changed.

How did this turn from "Lets tone notch bashing down" into "lets discuss what games we do and don't like?" My gods you guys can derail a thread quick fast and in a hurry.

[Deepsniper]

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

This. No skill means no replay value, which in turn means wasted money.

TL.net seems to like it.

Therefore My opinion hasn't changed.

How did this turn from "Lets tone notch bashing down" into "lets discuss what games we do and don't like?" My gods you guys can derail a thread quick fast and in a hurry.

Its almost like the minecart rails how quick it gets out of control...

[Damion Rayne]

One of the mods needs to lock this, it's ran it's course and is now out of control. Points have been made, and the thread as a whole has derailed to the point of no longer being about the topic it was started on.

[FlowerChild]

One of the mods needs to lock this, it's ran it's course and is now out of control. Points have been made, and the thread as a whole has derailed to the point of no longer being about the topic it was started on.

I dunno man. It's not called "off-topic" for nothing.

As long as it doesn't devolve into a flame-war (which it hasn't), I don't see the need to lock anything.

[Damion Rayne]

One of the mods needs to lock this, it's ran it's course and is now out of control. Points have been made, and the thread as a whole has derailed to the point of no longer being about the topic it was started on.

I dunno man. It's not called "off-topic" for nothing.

As long as it doesn't devolve into a flame-war (which it hasn't), I don't see the need to lock anything.

Ok, you're the boss FC.

[FlowerChild]

Ok, you're the boss FC.

I'm probably also the one that contributed the most to dragging this thread way off-topic ;)

[Damion Rayne]

Ok, you're the boss FC.

I'm probably also the one that contributed the most to dragging this thread way off-topic ;)

Ah..*coughs* Well in that case I suppose I can look the other way >.>

[darahalian]

Hooray for Off Topic threads going off-topic!

And also...

Hooray for quote pyramids!

Spoiler

Show

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

This. No skill means no replay value, which in turn means wasted money.

TL.net seems to like it.

Therefore My opinion hasn't changed.

How did this turn from "Lets tone notch bashing down" into "lets discuss what games we do and don't like?" My gods you guys can derail a thread quick fast and in a hurry.

Its almost like the minecart rails how quick it gets out of control...

[Fracture]

You're a 7 foot tall tank that kills things.

End of story. It's not devil may cry or Mercenaries it's shoot and slash as fast as possible.

That's all I want.

That may be all you want, but for most people, that type of gameplay gets boring very quickly, as there is simply no skill involved. That type of gameplay can be good stress relief, but not much of anything else imo.

This. No skill means no replay value, which in turn means wasted money.

TL.net seems to like it.

Therefore My opinion hasn't changed.

You're allowing your opinion of a game to be decided, rather than by logical dissection of the game's worth, by an outside group. I can see there's no real point to arguing with you.

And yes, hooray for off-topic.