Flower's Dev Diary (Week of November 27th)

[Battlecat]

To be perfectly honest, everything you've said about your planned design for Home and it's interaction with the vMC world is pretty ingenious. As you said, it gives you the freedom to effectively create a total conversion world without . Heck, you're even considering leaving a way to return to the "fake" vMC world which is pretty cool, especially considering the long term time investment into those worlds.

In some ways it almost seems a shame that you might have to abandon the "Home" design approach since it sounds incredibly unique and very fun. Without the extended ID's, I can see how you run very short on options very quickly.

[Wafflewaffle]

I understand that totally. But I don't think there's anyone here that's more attached to their worlds than you. If ultimately you decide you're willing to start over to go TC then I think 90%+ of those here will ultimately come to the same decision.

I agree with Sarudak on this. Plus I rather use, love and live in a new world, not prone to psychotic Majong behaviour then be bound to a world I love now but will get progressivly worst as a patch my vMC.

Edit: Added the quote for easier understanding,
Edit2: i fucked to quote up, fixed it

[FlowerChild]

Is there any other options besides full TC and RTH that you've been considering? If so it might be valuable to the discussion to mention them.

Ok, the short version of the options I've been considering:

-Fuck the blockIDs and just plow forward with Home. This obviously isn't practical as I would rapidly run out. What we're basically talking about here is me having a separate blockID for *everything* in the new world. In other words, if I want my own version of dirt or sand, then I need a blockID. How many blockIDs are there in MC at present? 120 or so? So yeah, that's no really feasible. Although, granted, I've come along way in my metadata usage, and vMC makes terrible use of them (like dirt definitely doesn't need it's own blockID), so I may be able to trim those numbers down drastically. This option may therefore still be on the table, but it would still probably leave me in a position of having to sweat over every single blockID, which would mean a lot of extra work due to how it complicates the code.

-Risk fucking people's worlds at some point in the future and go ahead with extending blockIDs myself right now. I don't like this option because of the potential damage to people's worlds, and knowing that I won't be able to tolerate it in the end, that it will likely mean that I'll end up investing a shitload of mind-numbing work into some kind of world convertor utility when Mojang releases their own solution. However, committing myself to doing so when that day arrives may be preferable to the current situation, so it's not off the table either.

-Fuck everything and go full TC (total conversion). Basically, set aside a month or so to work on it, then release "Better Than Wolves 2" (or whatever witty name I come up with ;) ) as a brand new mod. BTW as it is now would cease to exist. Old worlds would not function with the new mod. Home would become the main world and that's that.

-Fuck myself and keep going the way I've been going. Obviously, I'm not fond of that option :)

[Ceunon]

If ultimately you decide you're willing to start over to go TC then I think 90%+ of those here will ultimately come to the same decision.

But we can't forget that these forums are a tiny percentage of all the people who play BTW. There are a lot of players out there that are attached to their worlds.

Edit: Dem ninjas. Editing this.
Edit 2: Screw it, new post.

[Ferrus.Manus]

I think it was probably most aggravating for me man. I just didn't want to talk about it too much because I didn't want to give anything away, because "Home" always seemed to be just over the horizon and I wanted to preserve many of the surprises involved in my usual manner.

However, I think now I'm basically accepting that Home isn't going to happen unless I take drastic measures, which is why I've decided to open this all up and talk about it.

But yes, it's been driving me frigging nuts not to be able to move forward on this.

Seeing you toiling on grunt work of updating to new versions of Minecraft, getting sidetracked by fixing glaring flaws in minecraft and forced into desk-facing due to Mojang's increasingly worse decisions was probably the saddest part of it, your hard work and dedication is definitely appreciated by me (and many other), so thank you very much for putting up with this and continuing to deliver this awesome mod to community.

Frankly I feel any solution that would allow you move forward is welcome, whether it's Home, total conversion and whatever else you have in mind. You have proven yourself to be a brilliant game designer time and time again and I would trust that whatever decision you make is the best one (or at least a very good one)/
I would be perfectly OK even with drastic decisions such as completely stopping supporting new versions of MC. Downside is that would put the responsibility to fix Minecraft bugs on FC's shoulders, but nowadays it seems new Minecraft versions add more bugs than they fix (and even half of those fixes are more like band aids rather than actual fixes).

[Panda]

Is there any other options besides full TC and RTH that you've been considering? If so it might be valuable to the discussion to mention them.

Ok, the short version of the options I've been considering:

-Fuck the blockIDs and just plow forward with Home. This obviously isn't practical as I would rapidly run out. What we're basically talking about here is me having a separate blockID for *everything* in the new world. In other words, if I want my own version of dirt or sand, then I need a blockID. How many blockIDs are there in MC at present? 120 or so? So yeah, that's no really feasible. Although, granted, I've come along way in my metadata usage, and vMC makes terrible use of them (like dirt definitely doesn't need it's own blockID), so I may be able to trim those numbers down drastically. This option may therefore still be on the table, but it would still probably leave me in a position of having to sweat over every single blockID, which would mean a lot of extra work due to how it complicates the code.

-Risk fucking people's worlds at some point in the future and go ahead with extending blockIDs myself right now. I don't like this option because of the potential damage to people's worlds, and knowing that I won't be able to tolerate it in the end, that it will likely mean that I'll end up investing a shitload of mind-numbing work into some kind of world convertor utility when Mojang releases their own solution. However, committing myself to doing so when that day arrives may be preferable to the current situation, so it's not off the table either.

-Fuck everything and go full TC (total conversion). Basically, set aside a month or so to work on it, then release "Better Than Wolves 2" (or whatever witty name I come up with ;) ) as a brand new mod. BTW as it is now would cease to exist. Old worlds would not function with the new mod. Home would become the main world and that's that.

-Fuck myself and keep going the way I've been going. Obviously, I'm not fond of that option :)

Ide rather play a minecraft you designed, i like the conversion but understand you dont wanna pimp slap people worlds. :D

[obl1terat1ion]

FC do what you want to do if that means RTH do it! If that means turning the mod in to a TC do it! I think i speak for a lot of people here by saying we have complete trust in what you do with the mod.

[Ceunon]

Home would become the main world and that's that.

I'm not sure about this. You mean like...Completely erasing the overworld part?

[Ferrus.Manus]

Home would become the main world and that's that.

I'm not sure about this. You mean like...Completely erasing the overworld part?

I think it simply means that when you would start a new world in BtW2 you would already start in "Home" rather than MC world. There would be no MC world at all, meaning that FC would be free to use all vanilla block IDs freely.

[Chomamonka]

The way I see it FC, is that you always say that you make this mod because it's fun. I'm no professional coder by any means, but creating your very own world with your rules sounds SO FUN! I say do it, I think we can all expect even better more interesting content if you start implementing an idea that you are so passionate about.

[Sarudak]

Given those options I say TC still sounds like the best option. I guess the question I ask is are you willing to go through all the work and pain involved in option 2 for the sake of preserving your own world. If you are then I suppose option 2 makes a lot of sense. For me I don't care so much about my old worlds so I'd rather you have more freedom to spend your time designing and making awesome content. Personally it sounds like 1 and 4 aren't really options at all.

[FlowerChild]

Oh, for the sake of being thorough here, there's one other option I've been considering along the way too:

-Fuck Minecraft, write my own game from the ground up, and do it entirely the way I would like. Advantages to this include having complete control over the architecture and thus being able to do many things that aren't currently possible with MC the way it is (like, I'd kill for 8 bits of metadata instead of 4). HUGE disadvantages: it would mean I'm not working on the stuff I really like (gameplay), and you guys would likely not be playing anything BTW related for the next year.

And yes, all my options at present involve fucking one thing or another :)

I'm not sure about this. You mean like...Completely erasing the overworld part?

I mean, you'd boot up BTW 2, start a new world, and you'd be "Home". There would be no vMC "overworld" in the mod. Home would simply be the BTW world and that's it.

[Battlecat]

My biggest concern with option 1 is mojang is still consuming the block ID numbers for VMC. If you were to try to create Home within those limits and still maintain compatibility you'll still run into a day where vanilla development could encroach and conflict with your work. That would leave you stuck with world conversion, possibly a harder one if they consume the id's before providing the extended ID solution. That could be a serious issue if you're contemplating using almost everything that's left.

At least option #2 leaves you the freedom from concern about mojang's ID usage going forward. Since BTW is pretty much intended to be stand alone anyhow, you'd have the luxury of time deciding how exactly to deal with a conversion to mojang's solution.

Total conversion while cool, does eliminate one of the coolest features of BTW: One of the most elegant and complex mods that can be introduced to an existing vanilla world. But as you said, it does give you the freedom to unleash your design.

At the end of the day, I trust your judgement and it's very obvious that this is a difficult decision for you.

[Panda]

I feel for you dude, i wish there was an easy way you could extend those block I.D.s yourself :P

[obl1terat1ion]

Yeah by the looks of it i'd think most of us here would risk the world that we have created thus far in order to get to get to play in "home".

[Ceunon]

I'm not a programmer and I know nothing about coding either, but, after going through all the options, I'd stick with number 2 (extending the block-ids yourself). I don't, however, have the tiny grasp of how much work this would involve, so...yeah. It seems to me the safest path to take on an ideal world.

[Sarudak]

Well you know I support the make your own game option. I think another big advantage of that is that you could sell it and make some real money which could mean having a real time and thus vastly increased development resources.

My vote is TC or make your own game. But you already know that ;)

[FlowerChild]

My biggest concern with option 1 is mojang is still consuming the block ID numbers for VMC.

Yup, that's obviously a huge issue with it. Not only do I have a limited number of blockIDs to work with, that number is ever shrinking due to influences beyond my control.

Also, if Mojang continues to include blocks like netherbrick slabs (which they announced they would be), then those IDs are going to be consumed at a far great rate then they previously were.

As an aside, that netherbrick slab thing cracks me up. It's probably one of the announced features people are most excited about, but it takes about 10 minutes work to put them in the game as opposed to the dozens of hours that will probably go into any of the others.

Unfortunately though: that ten minutes also eats a blockID which is why I'm very reluctant to add too much stuff like that myself.

[Ferrus.Manus]

Even though I love my world I would say the situation would be implementing 4096 block ID bugfix and forcing players to create new world when (or if, seeing how Mod API is "moving" forwards) the official extended IDs hits, since that seems to require least effort while still preserving most gameplay.
Benefit of such solution would be that you could make Hardcore Buckets and Hardcore Buoy (and spawning fixes and such) non-optional (since the problem of breaking build is gone). I'm ashamed to say that I still play mostly with HCB off since converting most of my stuff seems to daunting for me, so even though I love my world I would say having to create brand new world will probably be for the better.

Other solution would be implement the block ID fix and simply stop updating to new versions of MC when official extended block ID gets released (which seem still far off).

All in all I'm for solution that would consume as little of you development time as possible, even if other things got to go.

[Ulfengaard]

Ide rather play a minecraft you designed, i like the conversion but understand you dont wanna pimp slap people worlds. :D

This. This is my vote. I wouldn't want anyone’s worlds trashed, but at some point something has to give. That’s the situation you’ve detailed here, FC, and if we need to switch gears and start fresh in order to continue receiving this great new content, I’ll punch the ‘delete’ button. Not everyone will feel that way, but this issue is important enough to voice my vote, at least.

There really are only two options so far as I see it: continue as-is, gasping new content here and there as Mojang continues to clamp everyone into their BlockIDSoonLolz stranglehold, or go TC and set aside current creations for greater creative ability and fun (for both FC and users). So, in short, I suppose I’m voting for ‘Let’s vote Mojang and their coconuts off the island and grow our own new f-ing coconuts’. Sure, we lose out in the short run, but all of us (especially FC) get some room to breathe.

EDIT: 'lose out' as in having to start new worlds.

[FlowerChild]

Well you know I support the make your own game option. I think another big advantage of that is that you could sell it and make some real money which could mean having a real time and thus vastly increased development resources.

BUT as I've mentioned before, money is basically the ONLY real advantage to me doing that.

I am happiest working on gameplay, not architecture, which means I am at my most productive. Players don't really get anything out of me making a game as opposed to a mod either, in fact, they get far less out of it.

Making a mod maximizes the impact of my time, gives players the greatest amount of content, makes me the happiest I've been in twenty years (recent troubles aside), and is basically a win for everyone involved. Making a game just gives people the impression that giving me money for my work is somehow a more legitimate thing to do, while they're actually getting less value for that money.

If I were to sell all that out just to make more cash, that would be a very sad day indeed dude.

[FlowerChild]

And yet another option :)

-Take BTW's development to another game entirely. I've been keeping a casual eye out for such games along the way, as with time I've realized that I will likely want to continue doing this kind of thing beyond the lifespan of Minecraft, and turn BTW into almost a "brand" of mods for various games in the long term. So far, the biggest candidates that have stood out for me are Towns (downside on that one is the 2D artwork it uses) and Project Zomboid (which while I love zombie games with a passion has the same 2D problem, and I feel is a bit too high-tech for the style of gameplay I'm interested in developing further).

To me, this is more of a long term option, but while we're getting it all out there, I felt I should include that one as well.

[Sarudak]

Oh I know. I was just saying that because you've been saying you need a team...

I hesitate to bring this up again because I'm not sure why you reacted so negatively last time. But if you're going to go Total Conversion and break from people's worlds there is the option of moving over to one of the open source minecraft clones. That would be an in between option from TC to writing your game from scratch. You would have a base to start from although it would be more work since it's a different code base to become accustomed to. There should be no problem with you modding/forking whatever. Instead of having to fix bugs in the base game/engine you could just submit a patch.

EDIT: Ninja'd with a similar thought it would appear. Personally i can't imagine what would become of BTW taken out of the voxel based building game environment.

[Doctor]

here is another idea, how about a team or people for making a game itself (refering to the other idea)
but that idea might make you know, while you have kept secrecy quite important. that might present another problem

[Mr_Hosed]

@FC

Please ignore this post if I'm way off on the technical aspects here, but isn't the concern with implementing more blockIds that save files will be corrupted and or require a later conversion routine?

If so, then couldn't one implement an extended version of the save file format for only a new dimension? I'm not familiar with the code base for vMC so I'm just guessing based on how I would have implemented the system, but I would think one could write a filter into the save/load routine to intercept calls for a new dimension and overright the blockId fields as one saw fit.

It would require maintaining a file format seperate from Mojang (even if only a little bit) which is the real disadvantage here, plus the extra work in mucking with their file system. And if one later wanted to use Mojang's ExtId system then a converter would definately be required (and that's it's own unique headache).

Frankly this really goes down to trust in Mojang and I don't think anyone trusts Mojang to actually fulfill any of their promises in a timely manner. vMC is and always was a prototype turned commercial and that's never a good thing :(