Don't Starve - initial thoughts and opinions

[icynewyear]

... a second after thinking "I really shouldn't be doing this".

And now you know how I feel every moment of my gaming life :P

[Taleric]

Ouch, with that investment I would be on hold for that tech change. I get stomped pretty quick so have not been far enough to appreciate carry over.

[FlowerChild]

Speaking of tentacles that seems to be the only way i die in Dont' Starve.

Hounds still occasionally nail me if they catch me at the wrong time (fire hounds anyways...they seem to run slightly faster). Also got killed recently busting down mermen shacks and not being prepared for the hoard they unleash when you do that :)

But yeah, tentacles are definitely dangerous, but I hadn't died to one in quite awhile. I have a system now where I use pitchforks to clear paths through swamps that keeps me out of trouble, just really happened to bugger it up this time.

Keep in mind: you die a lot more in adventure as the difficulty is quite a bit higher. I think I died a total of 4 times in level 3, once to hounds, once to the merman shack thing, once by stepping on a tooth trap when I was distracted by something else (I think bees were chasing me), and finally to the fateful tentacle that ended it all.

[CycloneSP]

Somebody really likes his meat effigies. I have actually only created one meat effigy to date. I tend to only die by doing stupid things that I know I shouldn't be doing, or just plain old screwing up when in combat. Mostly the former tho. Usually the random touch stone is good enough to keep me living long enough. But yeah, I'm a turtler. I tech up, get farms, and mostly turtle. Most of my adventuring is when I'm looking for a place to call my base. Usually try to get near beefalo and other resources.


Points of interest I've seen in various worlds.

Maxwellian cemetery: lots of graves surrounded by carpet, pillars, and Maxwell statues. Also, there is a source of "fun" to be found. I suggest investigating for yourself.

Tallbird colony: lots and lots of rocks tightly packed together in a small square area surrounded by 12 or 16 tallbird nests. Really gave me a surprise when I stumbled upon it.

That's all I've come across for now.

[FlowerChild]

So how about impressions of this cave update? I've been playing it a bit, and sadly, I'm far from impressed. It really feels like the game is losing it's focus and branching out into new things "just because". I really can't figure out what the point of these caves is beyond providing additional stone, which is nice, but which could have been done plenty of other (and simpler) ways.

I would have been a hundred times happier with an update focusing on polishing some loose ends with adventure mod, like your tech progress being reset every time you start it fresh. That one thing alone has been holding me back from doing another run with it.

[Zhil]

So how about impressions of this cave update? I've been playing it a bit, and sadly, I'm far from impressed. It really feels like the game is losing it's focus and branching out into new things "just because". I really can't figure out what the point of these caves is beyond providing additional stone, which is nice, but which could have been done plenty of other (and simpler) ways.

I would have been a hundred times happier with an update focusing on polishing some loose ends with adventure mod, like your tech progress being reset every time you start it fresh. That one thing alone has been holding me back from doing another run with it.

Is that a new disease introduced by the incremental update system for games like MC and DS? I think that there should be a limit to when development just stops. I have this problem with my art from time to time. I do my best work under time constraints, because I know I have to call it "finished" at one point.

I think we will be seeing this disease more from now on, where developers keep adding useless junk, because the business model allows for it. Kickstarters have seen a similar effect, where they ask for an amount and get 10x as much and then have to make up for it with a bunch of silly rewards, tying the company/team/person to doing boring menial stuff for a year while they see their new funds dwindle and in some case even disappear.

[FlowerChild]

Is that a new disease introduced by the incremental update system for games like MC and DS? I think that there should be a limit to when development just stops. I have this problem with my art from time to time. I do my best work under time constraints, because I know I have to call it "finished" at one point.

I think we will be seeing this disease more from now on, where developers keep adding useless junk, because the business model allows for it. Kickstarters have seen a similar effect, where they ask for an amount and get 10x as much and then have to make up for it with a bunch of silly rewards, tying the company/team/person to doing boring menial stuff for a year while they see their new funds dwindle and in some case even disappear.

Oh yeah man, I can hear that. I think it's a disease that hits mods particularly hard, and one I fight off routinely myself. I've discarded ideas on several occasions because I wound up realizing they were "just because it's something new". In fact, I think part of my focus on the early game, as opposed to extending the tech tree further, was the realization I'd be heading into that kind of territory and that my time would be better spent polishing the aspects already there (which I don't think is something that appeals to a lot of developers either as they feel like they aren't really accomplishing anything by adding big-ticket new features).

Now granted, sandbox games like MC are so open ended that I don't think they are as susceptible to that, and like with RTH I'm basically trying to build a platform for myself that I can continue to develop on indefinitely, but there's also definitely a point where most people run out of "real" ideas and should probably either call it a day or focus more on refinement than new content.

[Zhil]

Now granted, sandbox games like MC are so open ended that I don't think they are as susceptible to that, and like with RTH I'm basically trying to build a platform for myself that I can continue to develop on indefinitely, but there's also definitely a point where most people run out of "real" ideas and should probably either call it a day or focus more on refinement than new content.

I'm not sure if that's it though, since it doesn't seem like Don't Starve is sandbox enough that it shouldn't be susceptible either, yet it is. Maybe the game isn't at fault, but the developer. The game doesn't lose focus, the developer does, which results in the game losing focus.

I think maybe the developers need a break from development or just finish it up as you are doing with BTW.

[FlowerChild]

I'm not sure if that's it though, since it doesn't seem like Don't Starve is sandbox enough that it shouldn't be susceptible either, yet it is. Maybe the game isn't at fault, but the developer. The game doesn't lose focus, the developer does, which results in the game losing focus.

I think maybe the developers need a break from development or just finish it up as you are doing with BTW.

Well, Don't Starve is definitely not as open ended as vMC is. I think even just by virtue of it being 2D it tends to limits the whole creative aspect that give MC so much long-term potential, much like with Terraria. I think MC is one of the very few designs out there that actually benefits from being in 3D at more than just an aesthetic level.

I previously had the impression that DS was a focused design that had a definite beginning and ending. Honestly, I'm rather disappointed to be seeing it continuing in development like this post-release. No idea what "release" means in this context anyways, as it's appears to be just as ambiguous a term as it was with MC, like someone just felt they needed a release party, even if the event itself doesn't really have any meaning.

[FlowerChild]

Oh, as this was discussed leading up to the caves, in case anyone is interested: I just died in them (after well over an hour of exploration, so they really aren't that hard if you don't mind running...which I don't) and I popped outside with no ill effects (just left my inventory behind).

In fact, that was the point at which I lost all interest in playing further and quit the game. It just seems utterly pointless as a result of this, like some kind of safe area you can run around in to get loot totally free of any real risk, without advancing time in your game, and without any real consequence on your actual game other than getting said free stuff.

No risk, all reward. In short: "meh".

[FlowerChild]

"Klei, Caves are a bad idea"? :)

Hehe...I must admit I just had a bit of a flash-back to that first post of mine on MCF that kicked off the last two years of me developing BTW, while I re-read the following post I just made:

http://forums.kleientertainment.com/sho ... post177722

I won't say the "wtf?" here is as big as what happened with wolves (maybe I'm just more jaded now), but it's definitely along the same lines :)

[Ulfengaard]

Annnnd already they pour out of the woodwork. Best of luck over there, FC. Here's hoping someone with a brain responds to you.

[FlowerChild]

Sigh...ok, and two years later the responses seem to be much along the same lines too. Just waiting on the inevitable "if you don't like it, don't go down there" post :)

[Vexalor]

"Klei, Caves are a bad idea"? :)
http://forums.kleientertainment.com/sho ... post177722

(saturated with sarcasm) And, thus, the Better than Caves mod was born!

[FlowerChild]

Lol...no, not going to happen. If I'm walking away with any life-lessons learned from BTW, it's something along the lines of "dude...just make your own games" ;)

[Detritus]

I wish you luck in talking sense into the masses. I hope that the response does not continue to be as it was in your original thread on the MCF, and that you discover some sensible, reasonable people who either agree with your or argue in a more civilized manner. I think people really need to realize that devs are not gods, and can make bad decisions. I also think people need to understand that not everything that feels somewhat questioning or complaining is not necessarily an attack on the decision. The way that you worded the topic clearly says: this is something I want to know. You're basically saying "convince me this is a good idea", and in the process making everyone question their thoughts on it.
Anyway, best of luck :)

[FlowerChild]

Awesomesauce. Got an answer, and a constructive one from a dev. Sounds like they have similar doubts.

Man, I can't help but wonder how different things would have been had Notch responded to that first post of mine ;)

[SterlingRed]

Awesomesauce. Got an answer, and a constructive one from a dev. Sounds like they have similar doubts.

Man, I can't help but wonder how different things would have been had Notch responded to that first post of mine ;)

I'm not sure that would have been enough to change the course of mine craft. It seems like there were a lot more factors in notch handing the game off at that point plus the snowball was already on its way down the hill.

I haven't played ds in a while. I was going to hop back into it yesterday but saw these most recent posts. May still play around with it a bit. Glad the devs pay attention! It will certainly be interesting to see if they're able to call the game finished at some point or if they keep tinkering it to death.

[FlowerChild]

I'm not sure that would have been enough to change the course of mine craft.

No, I was thinking more that it may have changed my own course.

[FlowerChild]

Well, the 2nd Cave Update just came out today, and looking over the changelog, I just don't feel compelled to play. There really doesn't seem to be anything new here of interest, or much done to resolve the previous problems with the caves.

This is getting rather depressing.

[Sarudak]

I read some talk on the forums about how opening up the caves causes new creatures to appear in the overworld. If they continue along that path it might resolve to the tradeoff between getting new and valuable resources vs increasing the danger of life on the overworld.

[FlowerChild]

I guess, but my main issue is that there seems to still be no consequence to death underground, which IMO makes caves as the safest place in your world. I really don't feel like playing when there's a place in my world that offers me plenty of resources and that I feel like I'm cheating by going into.

I'm also kind of alarmed that these updates don't seem to offer any more content in terms of stuff that you can do stuff with :)

Not sure how to put it...you've got new mobs and such, but there don't seem to be any new resources or anything that would really compel you to want to go down there, just more of what already exists in the game. It all seems rather fruify and lacking in depth. It's like, I really don't give a shit that there's a "rock lobster" in this update given it doesn't seem to do anything special, and you can't do anything special with it. It just does nothing for me to have a mob with new textures that doesn't really do anything new.

I could be wrong. Maybe there's a new farming mechanic in there for them or something, and strong incentive to make use of it, but I don't get that impression reading over the change log, or the associated thread. I still find myself just asking "why?" to this whole cave thing.

[Sarudak]

It's possible they're planning on holding off more thorough integration of caves into the game until such time as they've finalized the design. They say they've got at least two more releases for caves until they remove the ability to 'regenerate' them which is a debug feature (ok not a good sign that that's in there at all). But making the change to what happens on death in a cave is not hard if they decide to. And changing the game to integrate cave resources is not that hard either they did the same thing with gears giving incentive to fight the knights.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, the "alpha status" of caves is rather fucked IMO. The game just released for pete's sake, and the first thing they did was put out unfinished content in the next release, which becomes a non-optional part of your world. That seems like a huge mistake to me, given that they probably sold a bunch of copies when they released, and the people that picked it up as such would naturally assume that the game is in a finished state as a result. Then, a few weeks later, the whole balance of the game gets mangled and a bunch of a half finished and even buggy content gets thrown in.

I really just don't understand what they're doing here.

[Sarudak]

Yeah. Major misstep. :(