4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

[Foxy]

it maybe a good idea to remove stone sword,

but rise his hand who don't think wood tools are weird...
because: oh yes i'm going to kill this pig with a wooden (child) sword, fuck yeah!!!

and then when you are going to mine, you don't take an iron pick but a stone one: wood it's to slow, iron it's the same but last longer, i will take 2 stone pickaxes that are the same of the iron one

i feel this is a little unbalanced

[Sarudak]

I had plan to merge the wood and stone level making it one tier that you got in two steps. Anyway if you're going to touch this area of the game please consider a serious nerf to pre-iron level pickaxes. I feel like there's not enough motivation to use an iron pickaxe early game other than the blocks it can harvest.

[Foxy]

it's exactly what i'm (trying) to say

[FlowerChild]

it maybe a good idea to remove stone sword,

but rise his hand who don't think wood tools are weird...
because: oh yes i'm going to kill this pig with a wooden (child) sword, fuck yeah!!!

and then when you are going to mine, you don't take an iron pick but a stone one: wood it's to slow, iron it's the same but last longer, i will take 2 stone pickaxes that are the same of the iron one

i feel this is a little unbalanced

There are real world equivalents to most of the wood tools though (not wood axes mind you...at least to my knowledge).

I just tend to think of wood in those terms. A wood "sword" is a club, and that's that.

Also, I think it's probably best you get to know the community and the mod better before attempting to contribute to this kind of discussion.

[Foxy]

i only telled my opinion , and i play with this mod from (beh, maybe not but nearly) when it was released

and how can I know the community if i does not participate in this discussions?

[Sarudak]

There are real world equivalents to most of the wood tools though (not wood axes mind you...at least to my knowledge).

Wooden pickaxe?

[FlowerChild]

i only telled my opinion , and i play with this mod from (beh, maybe not but nearly) when it was released

K man, that wasn't necessary. I've already had you mentally flagged as not really belonging on these forums due to some of your other posts, tried to steer you clear of this one so you wouldn't disrupt the conversation with less relevant points, but if you're going to just try to justify that in response, it resolves any lingering doubt I had.

Wooden pickaxe?

Well, lacking anything better, yeah, I suspect I would end up scraping at rock with a stick :)

Yeah...this is why I tend to try to keep away from those early game tools. Big old can'o'worms.

[Sarudak]

Yeah...this is why I tend to try to keep away from those early game tools. Big old can'o'worms.

For sure. The thing is minecraft has a certain system going where you can break anything with your hands. Hence the ubiquitous punch wood at the start. Also wood tools solve the chicken and the egg problem that you have if you need tools to get stone and need stone to get tools. I actually considered the creeper solution once but it's non-obvious and kinda gamey.

[FlowerChild]

For sure. The thing is minecraft has a certain system going where you can break anything with your hands. Hence the ubiquitous punch wood at the start.

Well, not really. Being able to break wood with your hands (which you can certainly do), is not the same as being able to cut wood with your hands (which you certainly can not).

MC *does* have a system in place for easily flagging blocks that can only be harvested through appropriate tool use, so switching logs to do that would be quite easy.

The tricky part of course is what to replace the wood cutting with, which leads to the whole flint axe thing, etc. and honestly, that whole jag has never felt worth it to me given what a very small part of the game wood tools actually occupy, and the method of collecting flint in MC.

So yeah, can'o'worms, that I think I'd likely leave to others to address.

[Sarudak]

And I do already have a plan for that which I believe will not only make the early tools feel a little more meaningful. But also spread out the early tool phase a bit and make iron feel all that more satisfying especially when it's tied in with the iron change you made. ;)

I don't however think there needs to be more than one tier of tools before iron.

Well, not really. Being able to break wood with your hands (which you can certainly do), is not the same as being able to cut wood with your hands (which you certainly can not).

Man this just gave me some really cool ideas for my early game mod. :P

[TheGatesofLogic]

Wait...did you just...seriously...oh man, it can't possible be...

Did you just suggest I make an obsidian tool mod? :)

ehhh... obsidian was once the most common material for weapons for both hunting and warfare. The reality of it makes sense, but the tech shrub of VMC slaps you in the face with this one, seeing as the softest known igneous rock is officially harder than fuckin granite in minecraft.

[PatriotBob]

...but the tech shrub of VMC...

I have to admit that made me laugh. It's about the most apt description of heard.

[FlowerChild]

It's not that it's necessarily a totally out there idea, it's just that I've always made so much fun of obsidian tool mods as the defacto "my first MC mod" that I don't think I could possibly stomach ever making such a thing part of BTW ;)

[TheGatesofLogic]

yeah i totally get that feeling too, it is most definitely the most common "my first mod" out there and it really is quite funny.
this whole thing about early game tools has to be taken into perspective though, I keep on having to remind myself what part of this is realism, and what part of it is good gameplay you know? there are a lot of things you could do to make the early tools more realistic, but when taken in terms of gameplay it becomes a much bigger problem to address properly

[Detritus]

It's not that it's necessarily a totally out there idea, it's just that I've always made so much fun of obsidian tool mods as the defacto "my first MC mod" that I don't think I could possibly stomach ever making such a thing part of BTW ;)

I dunno, I see more "Ooh look, gems gems gems gemsssss! Uranium tools!" mods than I do obsidian these days.

[FlowerChild]

I dunno, I see more "Ooh look, gems gems gems gemsssss! Uranium tools!" mods than I do obsidian these days.

You're probably right, but back in the day obsidian tools was definitely the newb tool of choice to inflict face-palms on the masses :)

[Detritus]

I dunno, I see more "Ooh look, gems gems gems gemsssss! Uranium tools!" mods than I do obsidian these days.

You're probably right, but back in the day obsidian tools was definitely the newb tool of choice to inflict face-palms on the masses :)

Most definitely :) Unfortunately, my first mod was only marginally better :/

[nmarshall23]

This would make maintaining a weapon more of an active decision. If you did find that the vacuum created by stone sword removal needed filling, it might be a good spot for obsidian instead.

This is why I didn't offer my suggestions. I'm going to take a moment and talk about good playtesting.

I've done a lot of playtesting most of it for pen and paper RPGs. FC earlier comments, that he has plenty of idea's and doesn't need us to chime in, is exactly what every game designer will tell you. If he asks for feedback, he wants feedback from when you are actually playing the game. If by some miracle he ask for your suggestions of how to fix stuff then and only then you should share.. I know it's hard. It's goes against our natural inclination to tinker and tweak.. I know we all have so many awesome ideas, and Mojang has given in to our demands, and that's bred some very bad habits. I almost suggested that stone swords be removed. However, I remembered that I trust FC as a game designer, I was sure he would find the appropriate means of fixing the game balance, for BTW. He is designing HIS game, and it's his vision that matters.

The last thing has a playtester you should remember is that, idea's are cheap. Implementing ideas, isn't. I know, it's an awesome feeling when someone you admire comes to the same conclusion as you do. I had to step away from the computer, and leave my house, so that I wasn't tempted to have a fan boi moment. :-D My point, it's very rare that anyone is the first to come up with an idea, or that your idea is original to you. If you share a moment, then obviously you trust that designer. You should buy his stuff.

Anyway, sorry for the off topic post. I hope I've been able to help other people understand what the role of a playtester is. Not to belittle anyone. Most of people haven't had the opportunity to playtest, thus don't understand the discipline that is needed when giving feedback. Excuse me while I make a donation.

[BobSlingblade679]

So, I finally got around to it and suicided so I could see how long it took me to get a compass. Results: not that long. I dug a staircase down to bedrock, dug a couple strips approx 30 blocks each and I had enough iron to make a pick, get my redstone, and make a compass.

So, I'd say its pretty close to perfect. Someone above mentioned it took forever to get the iron, which is why I decided to check it out. It didn't really change my initial activities. However, I don't have iron armor yet, and I'm a ways off from getting it so I think its safe to say the changes don't terribly lengthen the Quest for the Compass yet still greatly increases the overall value of iron, prolongs the time needed to be invested to get a full suit of armor which incentivizes leather armor ealy on, and makes mob traps really rewarding.

In short, seems to me the change is bang on as always, FC. Everything I've understood to be your intentions for the changes to iron seem perfectly balanced.

[Rampage_x]

After a few failed attempts to make Hearty Stew, with no success, I become very aggravated. I kept looking at the recipe and tried using all cooked items, then raw. It would cook some of the items, but would never fully finish. I was stumped. I went as far as checking to make sure I updated properly, found no problems there. TheN I scrolled over my Brown Mushroom, and seen that it said " Old Mushroom ". I immediately went to my mushroom farm, harvested a few fresh Brown Mushrooms and tried once again. To my surprise I was finally able to get Hearty Stew.

I am happy to say that my night got better within the last 10 minutes :)

[FlowerChild]

I am happy to say that my night got better within the last 10 minutes :)

Yeah, sorry about that shit man. Those conversion are unfortunately the cleanest way at my disposal to handle those kinds of things :\

[Rampage_x]

I am happy to say that my night got better within the last 10 minutes :)

Yeah, sorry about that shit man. Those conversion are unfortunately the cleanest way at my disposal to handle those kinds of things :\

No need to be sorry. I was annoyed for almost 2 hours. I had to run away from my cauldron out of anger. I finally approached with a problem solving
mindset, and was able to achieve my Hearty Stew goal.