A way to raise water

[Awfulcopter]

Now that the hardcore buckets option exists, I'd like a way to move water upwards.

What I hope is that Steve will invent the steam pump so I get get water to a cistern on the roof.

[FlowerChild]

I always love the obvious suggestions after I release a new feature. Some people take my statements as hints of things to come, others take it as an invitation to suggest what is being hinted at as somehow being an original idea.

Congrats on posting such a suggestion in record time after a new release.

[Necropolis]

Making it the default comes with a certain assumption that it is the way the mod is meant to be played. Therefore, I'd feel much more comfortable building features around that setting. At that point, there can't really be any complaints that I'm wasting resources on blocks that don't even apply to the default settings, if you understand what I mean. The assumption would be that if the devices aren't useful to you, it's because you're not playing the mod as intended.

In case you're wondering what "hint" he's talking about. And damn, bro. That was indeed fast.

[Awfulcopter]

I'm not trying to claim I came up with the idea of a pump. I just think it's something we obviously need, and therefore there should be a thread to discuss ideas on raising water.

The simple way would just be a machine that drew in water in one place, and spat it out in another. But it would be far more interesting to play with if you could actually pressurize the water. That way you could make fountains, sprinklers and the like.

There are a bunch of ways of raising water that fit in with a tech tree. Here's a video where people have rebuilt miniatures of a bunch of medieval water raising machines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyXMnTpggdI

[Thyphon]

Try to read what Necropolis quoted again....



(hint: "Therefore, I'd feel much more comfortable building features around that setting.")


Edit: Btw watched the video. the one at 3:05 was interesting, in my opinion.

[Awfulcopter]

Making it the default comes with a certain assumption that it is the way the mod is meant to be played. Therefore, I'd feel much more comfortable building features around that setting. At that point, there can't really be any complaints that I'm wasting resources on blocks that don't even apply to the default settings, if you understand what I mean. The assumption would be that if the devices aren't useful to you, it's because you're not playing the mod as intended.

In case you're wondering what "hint" he's talking about. And damn, bro. That was indeed fast.

The timestamps say that hint was posted after my suggestion. Am I really expected to peer into the future before making a suggestion?

[foreman]

Edit: Btw watched the video. the one at 3:05 was interesting, in my opinion.

I liked the idea of that one myself, though instead of what looks like a donkey or horse, strap up a wolf and "motivate" it to move about.

[Thyphon]

Edit: Btw watched the video. the one at 3:05 was interesting, in my opinion.

I liked the idea of that one myself, though instead of what looks like a donkey or horse, strap up a wolf and "motivate" it to move about.

Good sir... I love the way you think ;)

[Magmarashi]

Making it the default comes with a certain assumption that it is the way the mod is meant to be played. Therefore, I'd feel much more comfortable building features around that setting. At that point, there can't really be any complaints that I'm wasting resources on blocks that don't even apply to the default settings, if you understand what I mean. The assumption would be that if the devices aren't useful to you, it's because you're not playing the mod as intended.

In case you're wondering what "hint" he's talking about. And damn, bro. That was indeed fast.

The timestamps say that hint was posted after my suggestion. Am I really expected to peer into the future before making a suggestion?

Yes, of course

[BinoAl]

Making it the default comes with a certain assumption that it is the way the mod is meant to be played. Therefore, I'd feel much more comfortable building features around that setting. At that point, there can't really be any complaints that I'm wasting resources on blocks that don't even apply to the default settings, if you understand what I mean. The assumption would be that if the devices aren't useful to you, it's because you're not playing the mod as intended.

In case you're wondering what "hint" he's talking about. And damn, bro. That was indeed fast.

The timestamps say that hint was posted after my suggestion. Am I really expected to peer into the future before making a suggestion?

It wasn't necessarily the hint, just how obvious this suggestion is. With such a new feature, it's generally a good idea to not suggest anything affecting it for a few updates, as it's still being worked on and fleshed out

[Deepsniper]

Well as its here and we have it why not discuss the idea rather than bicker at each other like old people.

Personally the two Ideas i have for this that would work well is the one that you showed in the vid that everyon likes, maybe power it mechanical/personal/animal or the idea of having something like a water screw like this.

Spoiler

Show

[FlowerChild]

Yes, of course

The 'hint' I was talking about was inherent in the feature itself.

Hardcore buckets makes it impossible to place water-flow by conventional means. The first question that inevitably arises when that happens is "will there be a mod method to do so associated with this?"

It's blatantly obvious, and frankly a little disheartening when a new feature immediately inspires suggestions an hour or two after release as to how they can be changed, before anyone has even had a chance to really play around with them.

Discuss away. I just couldn't help expressing my initial face-palm when this suggestion popped up so prematurely immediately after release of the last version. I guess I tend to take suggestions as exactly that: suggestions for inclusion in the mod. Perhaps others view this more as a venue for discussing ideas as to where the mod might be going in the future with the rest of the community.

I suspect therein lies the difference. If I perceive this as a suggestion that someone is making to me personally, then I can only really respond with "well...duh!". If you guys are just throwing ideas at each other however, then I should just probably stay out of and let you have at it.

I guess it just really comes down to how one perceives this particular sub-forum should be used. I'll attempt in the future to view these threads less as suggestions being directed at me personally as I think that may be at the route of why I often become aggravated by them.

[Deepsniper]

Yes, of course

The 'hint' I was talking about was inherent in the feature itself.

Hardcore buckets makes it impossible to place water-flow by conventional means. The first question that inevitably arises when that happens is "will there be a mod method to do so associated with this?"

It's blatantly obvious, and frankly a little disheartening when a new feature immediately inspires suggestions an hour or two after release as to how they can be changed, before anyone has even had a chance to really play around with them.

Discuss away. I just couldn't help expressing my initial face-palm when this suggestion popped up so prematurely immediately after release of the last version. I guess I tend to take suggestions as exactly that: suggestions for inclusion in the mod. Perhaps others view this more as a venue for discussing ideas as to where the mod might be going in the future with the rest of the community.

I suspect therein lies the difference. If I perceive this as a suggestion that someone is making to me personally, then I can only really respond with "well...duh!". If you guys are just throwing ideas at each other however, then I should just probably stay out of and let you have at it.

I guess it just really comes down to how one perceives this particular sub-forum should be used. I'll attempt in the future to view these threads less as suggestions being directed at me personally as I think that may be at the route of why I often become aggravated by them.

FC that is how i feel it should be, a lot of the people here know more or less what you like/dont like (mainly the turtles) but I feel this should be a place where suggestions should be discussed openly with the others and maybe some idea might come out which you would approve. That is if the idea isnt completely something stupid like diamond tipped saws or horizontal platforms.

[FlowerChild]

FC that is how i feel it should be, a lot of the people here know more or less what you like/dont like (mainly the turtles) but I feel this should be a place where suggestions should be discussed openly with the others and maybe some idea might come out which you would approve. That is if the idea isnt completely something stupid like diamond tipped saws or horizontal platforms.

Fair enough. I think this attitude on my part largely stems from us migrating over from the MCF forums a few months ago. There, pretty much every post was addressed to me, and I wound up taking a rather negative view of many suggestion posts as a result. When we moved over here, I think I just maintained the assumption these posts were being directed towards me without really taking into account that the switch to a full-fledged forum meant there was much more room for just general speculation and chit-chat in these things.

All right then, I'll endeavor to change my own attitude towards these things and assume that unless something is relayed over to the turtle sub-forum that it is not really intended as an actual suggestion for inclusion.

My apologies for taking this long to clue into this. I'm sure almost everyone involved would be much happier (myself included) if I didn't view things as described above :)

[Stormweaver]

All right then, I'll endeavor to change my own attitude towards these things and assume that unless something is relayed over to the turtle sub-forum that it is not really intended as an actual suggestion for inclusion.

My apologies for taking this long to clue into this. I'm sure almost everyone involved would be much happier (myself included) if I didn't view things as described above :)

Well, since (in my experience) ideas that get ported from here to the turtle forum normally get asked to be put into a brief summary for you, when an idea is actually at the point of graduating from a concept to a fully formed suggestion, it should be stuck in the OP in a format specified in the rules section. That way there's already a short description for the turtles to quote and move over, and it gets around the new posters coming in and their topics sounding like 'this shouldz be inz'. Not that they really use random 'z's after words anymore.

[Shengji]

I guess it just really comes down to how one perceives this particular sub-forum should be used. I'll attempt in the future to view these threads less as suggestions being directed at me personally as I think that may be at the route of why I often become aggravated by them.

I think people use it both ways, sometimes the same person will have two threads here, one a direct suggestion for inclusion, the other a general idea for discussion and sometimes one idea morphs into the other.

It doesn't help that there are some members here who are very quick to respond with "the party line" by which I mean blast out a quote which you yourself have written once, whether it be relevant or not. For example, recently, the current trend is to knock an idea, because it is theoretically already possible to achieve in btw. The most ridiculous example I can think of was where the theoretical idea to be able to reclaim glass would take longer than re-mining the raw materials and just rebuilding the whole damn thing.

The "Your idea is invalid because..." is very popular, but I see this as someone telling you what not to include in your mod, and should be written with the same respect as the idea in the first place. Because people see you do this all the time though, they place themselves in the role of a turtle or a mini-FC and shout it down on your behalf, I guess imitation is the best form of flattery etc.

What I'm trying to get to, is firstly, definitely you have done the right thing by making this sub forum, it keeps all similar discussion in one place, but how about expanding it to include the philosophy of type suggestions, whether they be philosophy of gameplay, MC or BTW. Just encourage people to be completely clear if they are making a direct suggestion for the mod and then you can avoid those threads.

[Necropolis]

I take the general philosophical route of making a gauntlet for new ideas, and subjecting them to close scrutiny in the suggestions thread. This includes, but may not be limited to:

Deciding if the idea conflicts with BTW goals, stated or implied
Conflicts with previous decisions FC has made
Is redundant (efficiently, I agree with you about the glass blocks) with current mod methods
Is met by another compatible, comparatively simple mod
Has room for improvement or further inclusion
Is not overly elaborate
Fits with the theme and tenor of BTW design philosophy
Is generally useful
Is well thought out, with bonuses being given to drawing from historical sources

I feel that we should strive to see these conditions met, and debate the issue well and thoroughly, especially in such conditions where one of those issues is unclear, so that successful ideas that meet those standards are then passed, streamlined and defensible, onto the golden features thread. The most ill thought out and researched ideas are blasted to encourage artificial selection of posts, as we know that bad ideas beget bad ideas, and similarly bad posters beget bad posts (usually more rapidly than good posters make good posts). We take it upon ourselves to make conditions harsh here to try and keep frustration away from FC's doorstep, and the more serious among us see this as only the first step in the process to present an idea to FC, not the last.

At least, this is how I've always perceived things.

[BinoAl]

For example, recently, the current trend is to knock an idea, because it is theoretically already possible to achieve in btw. The most ridiculous example I can think of was where the theoretical idea to be able to reclaim glass would take longer than re-mining the raw materials and just rebuilding the whole damn thing.

While the glass thing is a bit annoying, most other examples of this make sense. It's redstone shortcuts in most cases, which just takes half the fun of figuring out how to do everything. For example, I've seen redstone clocks suggested at least 4 times. 2 of these were after the implementation of the turntable. Anyway, generally it's a bad idea to include something thats already possible to do, because it doesn't add any real functionality, and just takes the challenge out of minecraft

[Deepsniper]

I think were getting a bit off subject from what the OP is and I think were getting the point of this forum being a discussion place rather than actual suggestions directly to FC. The suggestions are nice here and there because they help give FC some idea of what we like but thats what they are they're ideas. They need to be discussed among peers before you bring it up to the boss. Just like everything else in the world you need to figure out the parameters of the ideas, the abilities they allow and disallow and if this idea is just a waste of time for the output it gives.

So back on subject I was wondering if people thought that the water raising device (lets call it bob) should be used at an angle or should be strait up.

Personally i figure "bob" should be on an angle since that way you could create a much more steady flow rather than the strait up bucket idea. If you could design it so that it poured out water like someone pouring out buckets one by one it would be more realistic but alas I would assume that that case would be very memory hogging.

[M!C]

So back on subject I was wondering if people thought that the water raising device (lets call it bob) should be used at an angle or should be strait up.

Personally i figure "bob" should be on an angle since that way you could create a much more steady flow rather than the strait up bucket idea. If you could design it so that it poured out water like someone pouring out buckets one by one it would be more realistic but alas I would assume that that case would be very memory hogging.

The entire angle theme reminds me of the Archimedean Screw. You can achieve a rather steady flow by adding a small storage at the top and it's a very compact technique compared to a waterwheel with buckets or the likes.

[the_fodder]

As this is now a lets talk about moving water thread... and no longer HaY FC U NEEDZ TO MAEK THIS thread.

I would like to see a vertical option maybe modify the wicker so if it lands in a water source block it will bring a little up with it. (fully aware of what I am tiptoeing around)

Also someway to extend the horizontal run would help with moving water.
Current thought is to give a bonus to player created sluices.
Sluice:
When water flows from a full-block to half block* it would create a source block at the drop.
+*Suggest using Panel put this bonus at Saw tech level.
+Run of 30 vertical blocks traveled for every 2 block in lost elevation. (7 running water over full block +8 source and running water on half block +7 full +8 half)
+Source block would be dependent on surrounding blocks like kiln.
+Dependency on full block to half block means we will still need grade.
-Formation and amount of blocks need to be tweaked to prevent exploits.
-Could it reset the run or would the game require source block?

[Awfulcopter]

Also someway to extend the horizontal run would help with moving water.

Yeah, I want to make a romanesque aquaduct that brings water from the mountains to my town. But The 7 run, 1 drop ratio means you just can't move water very far. It's troubling enough to me that I'd like to see a solution that's availble not too far down the tech tree.

[BinoAl]

Also someway to extend the horizontal run would help with moving water.

Yeah, I want to make a romanesque aquaduct that brings water from the mountains to my town. But The 7 run, 1 drop ratio means you just can't move water very far. It's troubling enough to me that I'd like to see a solution that's availble not too far down the tech tree.

I'd love to see something like this too. I actually had just made an aqueduct earlier today, and was annoyed at how quickly i had to lower it

[Necropolis]

The reason water runs like it does is because of meta data restrictions. Making it run farther would mean modifying base code.

[BinoAl]

The reason water runs like it does is because of meta data restrictions. Making it run farther would mean modifying base code.

We don't necessarily mean alter the water itself. Maybe it could travel further/infinitely in one direction with a block underneath it? the water's meta data assigns it a distance from the source, from which its height is decided. If the block checked above itself for water and set it to a closer distance to the source (in the meta data) it could travel further. Anyway, lets not discuss the technical details, more on the design. That's bound to be much more interesting and productive