BTW: Design Philosophy

[Capax infiniti]

If you have infinite fire from hibachis, doesn't that make having to use nether coal for steam kind of nonsensical?

I'm not sure if you were responding specifically to me but, it would be a fair point if this were real life. Why do we still use wood/charcoal/coal/nethercoal to smelt items in a furnace then? Why does the hibachi grill burn at all? It would make the hibachi grill overpowered and take a lot of the challenge (and by extension, fun) out of the game. I think the same concept will apply to steam power. Also, if you insist upon using reason in an unreasonable situation you could say that the hibachi grill doesn't burn hot enough (it probably doesn't in real life).

[Devalish]

I believe the next stage of development will use some sort of crafting device(s) designed to operate off the existing mechanical system. And I suspect one of the early ones will be an improved metal smelter/metal processing system to make metal of a quality appropriate for a boiler.

I was thinking of something along the lines of this. Maybe, if the next age is the age of steam, there could be a new CT added, which needs to be hooked on mechanical power, to be able to manipulate the new resources (This would also imply that it would be harder to move, unlike the original CT). The new CT could in turn require belts to be made. Progressing from that, the new contraptions could (partly) enhance existing features by, for example, boosting power when connected to it.

Going on about the steam, there could be limitations, as in the steam circuit needed to be closed, or using a maximum length of pipe being used.

As someone before me stated as well, this is by no means a list of suggestions, just to be clear ^^


*edit: something sprang to mind after thinking some more about this

[FlowerChild]

I'm not sure if you were responding specifically to me but, it would be a fair point if this were real life. Why do we still use wood/charcoal/coal/nethercoal to smelt items in a furnace then? Why does the hibachi grill burn at all? It would make the hibachi grill overpowered and take a lot of the challenge (and by extension, fun) out of the game. I think the same concept will apply to steam power. Also, if you insist upon using reason in an unreasonable situation you could say that the hibachi grill doesn't burn hot enough (it probably doesn't in real life).

Yup, that's the exact reasoning I used behind the Nethercoal (as listed in the item description).

Netherrack doesn't burn hot enough to smelt when it's on its own.

By the same reasoning you can cook with the Cauldron (but not smelt) because cooking doesn't require the same kind of heat to be involved.

Not saying anything about future uses or whatever of the Nethercoal. Just verifying what you said above as being consistent with the logic I am following with the design.

Honestly, for the most part I was trying to compensate for a lack of consistency in the vanilla Minecraft design with all the above. Wood burns hot enough to smelt in the furnace, and burns like Netherrack normally, but Netherrack doesn't burn in the furnace...so...what do you do with that? :)

[Fracture]

Honestly, for the most part I was trying to compensate for a lack of consistency in the vanilla Minecraft design with all the above. Wood burns hot enough to smelt in the furnace, and burns like Netherrack normally, but Netherrack doesn't burn in the furnace...so...what do you do with that? :)

Not that I agree with the system, but in defense of vM: Given that we don't actually know the chemical formula of Netherrack, nor can we be certain that wood is of the same composition as it is in our world, we could, at a bit of a stretch, assume that netherrack produces an incredibly slow flame, with little energy, while wood is quickly consumed by a very powerful, hot burn.

Chemically-- possible. Logically-- iffy.

[BinoAl]

Chemically-- possible. Logically-- iffy.

But portals to hell are totally cool :p

[Fracture]

Chemically-- possible. Logically-- iffy.

But portals to hell are totally cool :p

Given that we don't actually know the various variables in Steve's world, a point where two matching locations in different spaces interact directly is, again, possible. Iffy, but possible. I grant you, I don't think arranging a rectangle of lava-glass and trying to light it on fire would create such an advanced trans-spatial transport mechanism, but hey-- what's an RPG without a touch of magic?

[Creepig]

But portals to hell are totally cool :p

Given that we don't actually know the various variables in Steve's world, a point where two matching locations in different spaces interact directly is, again, possible. Iffy, but possible. I grant you, I don't think arranging a rectangle of lava-glass and trying to light it on fire would create such an advanced trans-spatial transport mechanism, but hey-- what's an RPG without a touch of magic?

Besides, the term 'trans-spatial transport mechanism' is probably above Steve's tech level. To him, it's probably magic. That's why I tend to enclose my portals in a temple of sorts. Such unholy power is venerated by the uneducated masses.

[Fracture]

Given that we don't actually know the various variables in Steve's world, a point where two matching locations in different spaces interact directly is, again, possible. Iffy, but possible. I grant you, I don't think arranging a rectangle of lava-glass and trying to light it on fire would create such an advanced trans-spatial transport mechanism, but hey-- what's an RPG without a touch of magic?

Besides, the term 'trans-spatial transport mechanism' is probably above Steve's tech level. To him, it's probably magic. That's why I tend to enclose my portals in a temple of sorts. Such unholy power is venerated by the uneducated masses.

"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic."

Yeah, Steve just sets stuff on fire and POW! Shit happens. All he knows, all he cares-- in this Age.

[Creepig]

Besides, the term 'trans-spatial transport mechanism' is probably above Steve's tech level. To him, it's probably magic. That's why I tend to enclose my portals in a temple of sorts. Such unholy power is venerated by the uneducated masses.

"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic."

Yeah, Steve just sets stuff on fire and POW! Shit happens. All he knows, all he cares-- in this Age.

"Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."

Well, once Steve gets to the Stargate Age, then perhaps he can begin crafting dimensional rifts to other realms. I think that's a long way off, though. We still have to make it through the Steam Age, the Petroleum Age, the Nuclear Age, the Information Age, the Nanotech Age, and the Age of Aquarius.

[Adjudicator79]

I was working pro bono most of this evening, so I haven't had a chance to catch up on the different posts, and I have to teach in the morning, so I'm turning in early. Given those restrictions, I will write a more typical response post in the morning.

In the meantime, my one substantive comment is that FlowerChild's point about the inconsistency of wood and Netherrack as fuel sources in vM ties perfectly back in with the original quote I kicked off this entire thread with. If you try to apply real world physics to the game and embrace that level of "realism," you get stuck making arguments like Fracture's (very well reasoned) rationalization of the in-game mechanics.

This is where I see FlowerChild's stated resistance to "realism" to be especially beneficial. As long as the tech stands up to a logical progression within the context of the game, it's much more enjoyable for the player. As later posters pointed out, we're talking about a substance gained through a trans-dimensional portal, which is itself crafted out of obsidian and somehow ignited with flint and steel! Suspension of disbelief is pretty much a given at that point!

[walker_boh_65]

Well, once Steve gets to the Stargate Age, then perhaps he can begin crafting dimensional rifts to other realms. I think that's a long way off, though. We still have to make it through the Steam Age, the Petroleum Age, the Nuclear Age, the Information Age, the Nanotech Age, and the Age of Aquarius.

way to plan FAR ahead, and i dont have any clue how we could do any of that stuff

[Creepig]

Well, once Steve gets to the Stargate Age, then perhaps he can begin crafting dimensional rifts to other realms. I think that's a long way off, though. We still have to make it through the Steam Age, the Petroleum Age, the Nuclear Age, the Information Age, the Nanotech Age, and the Age of Aquarius.

way to plan FAR ahead, and i dont have any clue how we could do any of that stuff

See, that part is fairly easy. When the moon is in the Seventh House, and Jupiter aligns with Mars, then peace will guide the planets, and love will steer the stars...

Really, though, my point was to make a tongue-in-cheek statement that though lining up a rectangle of volcanic glass and setting it on fire is pretty stupid, we don't really need to explain why it works. Just call it magic, dance around the fire and chant to Armok, and continue on.

[FlowerChild]

Guys, all joking around aside (and it IS quite funny), you're rapidly turning a stellar and intelligent topic into a lot of noise. Please try to bring it back on course and not flood it with jokes.

Very nice paraphrase of Asimov though ;)

[Fracture]

Righto.

@Adjudicator79 While suspension of disbelief is well and good, I find I enjoy a game more if I can reason out the working mechanics behind systems that might otherwise appear to have been an ass-pull by the director, and apply the basic laws of physics to them. Thus far, especially given that the second law of thermodynamics is not inviolable, I have yet to encounter a game in which I cannot reason out the system to my satisfaction.

Thus accomplished, however, if asked about it I tend to, as Creepig suggests, call it magic, do a little dance, and chant to the resident deities of my current reality. I just have to work it out for myself first in order to enjoy it.

[Vonstapler]

All hail Armok!

On a more relevant note, I think that steam, and the steam age, could be incorporated without too much trouble:

First off, what are the serious advantages of steam? It is consistent (provided you have fuel) and it is powerful. This could be used to effectively increase the speed of mechanically powered objects (like the grindstone), and if power can be supplied through pipes in a way similar to that found in industrialcraft, it could significantly simplify many structures.

Now, what are the disadvantages to steam? First, as I stated earlier, it required a consistent supply of fuel, and second, it is very resource hungry. Of course, in vM, these resources, namely iron, are quite dear. If the mining ability of Steve is not in some way increased in the age of steam, it may be pointless to move past wood. On the other hand, a super drill that plows through stone and ore at ludicrous speed may make mining far too easy.

To remedy this, I agree with whoever proposed the idea of being able to turn one ore block into two ingots. This alone, while it may make production of steam age tools easier, I feel would still be missing one basic utility; the ability to mine heaps of semi useless material quickly for construction. To remedy this, I propose that a combination of three iron ingots and six lumps of coal in a new steam powered industrial furnace/smelter create a single steel block. Steel would of course be used like any other ore, but would have the advantage of being nearly as tough as diamond tools and armor, while being slightly more effective than iron.

[thenoobfactor]

Few materials in the world of minecraft are actually affected by physics, A desert can be right next to a tropical rainforest, each only spanning 500 feet. Obviously, the natural rules we percieve as normal and logical do not apply in Steves plane(s) of existance. We need to take into account an entirely new set of rules when discussing what makes sense.

Also, I find it interesting that no other being in vM seems build or invent (with the exception of simple bows). It would completely turn gameplay on its head if Steve had to compete with rival humans for land and resources. Perhaps once Notch adds NPC villages they could be made to advance past the simple stone huts we see in the pictures?

[empath]

I'm not sure if you were responding specifically to me but, it would be a fair point if this were real life. Why do we still use wood/charcoal/coal/nethercoal to smelt items in a furnace then? Why does the hibachi grill burn at all? It would make the hibachi grill overpowered and take a lot of the challenge (and by extension, fun) out of the game. I think the same concept will apply to steam power. Also, if you insist upon using reason in an unreasonable situation you could say that the hibachi grill doesn't burn hot enough (it probably doesn't in real life).

Yup, that's the exact reasoning I used behind the Nethercoal (as listed in the item description).

Netherrack doesn't burn hot enough to smelt when it's on its own.

By the same reasoning you can cook with the Cauldron (but not smelt) because cooking doesn't require the same kind of heat to be involved.

Not saying anything about future uses or whatever of the Nethercoal. Just verifying what you said above as being consistent with the logic I am following with the design.

Honestly, for the most part I was trying to compensate for a lack of consistency in the vanilla Minecraft design with all the above. Wood burns hot enough to smelt in the furnace, and burns like Netherrack normally, but Netherrack doesn't burn in the furnace...so...what do you do with that? :)

Not to belabor the point, because I entirely understand the game design reasons for requiring fuel for steam, but smelting aside, if it's hot enough to cook food, it's probably hot enough to boil water, which is hot enough to produce steam.

I think this just goes to show that game designers should be careful with throwing out the laws of thermodynamics (which notch did when he made netherrack burn infinitely). Giving players infinite energy is always a problem.

[FlowerChild]

Not to belabor the point, because I entirely understand the game design reasons for requiring fuel for steam, but smelting aside, if it's hot enough to cook food, it's probably hot enough to boil water, which is hot enough to produce steam.

I think this just goes to show that game designers should be careful with throwing out the laws of thermodynamics (which notch did when he made netherrack burn infinitely). Giving players infinite energy is always a problem.

Not necessarily, you just have to account for it down the road in further feature design. I think it totally fits the game-logic (and general mythology) that hell is composed of infinitely burning material.

Frankly, if I were in Notch's shoes, I probably would have just given the player an infinite fuel-source as a reward for making it to the Nether. Perhaps one that only functions that way *in* the nether to encourage travel and construction there...but still. By the time a player manages to get to the Nether in the game, coal is pretty much done as a limited resource anyways considering its availability. To me, it is really only an early-game resource to begin with which becomes largely meaningless mid to late game given that normal mining operations to gain iron and diamond will give you more coal than you know what to do with.

I will also point out that the entire mechanical system is based on an infinite fuel source. Again, where's the problem? If you design around that, I really don't think there is one.

I will also make a couple of other points here:

a) I've never said that steam will be included in the mod.
b) I've never said that if I were to include steam that it would have a finite fuel source.

The only point I was making was about netherrack's *current* functionality within the mod and the design decisions that lead me to having Nethercoal function the way it does. Obviously, I am not willing to discuss upcoming features here.

[PatrickSJ]

So, setting aside my previous comments on steam technology I'll try to get back on track to the latest topics.

I'm going to expand upon my thought regarding exploration and think on the groups comments on how BTW is currently focusing on improving exploitation. There is also the position that scarcity drives innovation and therefore I see BTW beginning with forcing the player to expand and secure scarce resources. This is especially true since we now have automated wood harvesters.

One known resource is belts which requires leather and dung. Wolves are not available in every biome and it will force the player to explore if such a biome is not readily available. This can be improved upon in 1.8 if that is when larger biomes are introduced to Minecraft.

Other than that the next scarce resource would be iron if I assuming BTW follows the Wood/Stone -> Iron -> Gold -> Diamond pattern. Right now iron is only used in BTW for saws so I wouldn't be surprise if the player is forced to explore further to secure enough iron for future mechanisms. This also works well on creating scarcity as rails require iron thus forcing Steve to balance transportation development with BTW expansions. No one really likes setting up a separate base and then having to haul those chests back to their main.

[Battlecat]

Frankly, if I were in Notch's shoes, I probably would have just given the player an infinite fuel-source as a reward for making it to the Nether. Perhaps one that only functions that way *in* the nether to encourage travel and construction there...but still. By the time a player manages to get to the Nether in the game, coal is pretty much done as a limited resource anyways considering its availability. To me, it is really only an early-game resource to begin with which becomes largely meaningless mid to late game given that normal mining operations to gain iron and diamond will give you more coal than you know what to do with.

Very true FlowerChild. The excess quantity of coal late game does make energy supply relatively meaningless. Combine that with the ability to mass produce charcoal which is equally as effective as coal and it really isn't a limiting resource in the game. Thanks for reminding us in on that.

I'll move away from discussing steam as well; wouldn't want interesting discussion lost in speculation. Infinite energy sources aren't really the issue whether it be coal or the new mechanical system. Minecraft is all about perpetual motion and violating physics (hello gravity!). Better than Wolves has a clever way of putting limitations on infinite energy sources. At least two of the systems that are contained in Better than Wolves operate on a "more is faster" theme. The cauldron works faster when more fire is around it and the millstone works faster when powered by a waterwheel than it does by hand. Plus, both these devices are more efficient and functionally better than the vanilla equivalents (ie: Cooking lots of Pork or making flour to craft bread instead of using wheat directly). That provides an interesting limitation that leads to creative design.

I believe Better than Wolves has moved from low hanging fruit to providing a sophisticated quality of life extension to the game. I think this move is only good for the mod and the game. The sophistication comes directly from the interdependence of the components. Whatever the next age might be, it will probably have these three characteristics:

1: It will likely increase the quality of life or the efficiency of some existing system in the game.
2: It will likely accomplish the above by leveraging the tools and techniques of the mechanical devices added through the age of wood.
3: It will probably culminate in something cool and unexpected that isn't possible in the game to date (much like the elevators).

Note that I'm referencing the Age, not the individual items within and yes I'm hedging. The addition of the gear and belts didn't accomplish any of these three. But in the realm of flavor they was absolutely necessary to give the feel of building mechanical components.

[FlowerChild]

I'll move away from discussing steam as well; wouldn't want interesting discussion lost in speculation. Infinite energy sources aren't really the issue whether it be coal or the new mechanical system. Minecraft is all about perpetual motion and violating physics (hello gravity!). Better than Wolves has a clever way of putting limitations on infinite energy sources. At least two of the systems that are contained in Better than Wolves operate on a "more is faster" theme. The cauldron works faster when more fire is around it and the millstone works faster when powered by a waterwheel than it does by hand. Plus, both these devices are more efficient and functionally better than the vanilla equivalents (ie: Cooking lots of Pork or making flour to craft bread instead of using wheat directly). That provides an interesting limitation that leads to creative design.

Well, I just want to say in response to this that I have no problem with you guys speculating as to what is to come whatsoever (I actually find reading such discussion rather interesting), my only point was that I personally won't acknowledge such speculation, so if a post is specifically addressed to me (as I felt the one I was responding to above was), there's not much point introducing such elements into the argument being made.

But yeah, speculate away as to the direction the mod is going in. I certainly don't release teaser trailers like the other day to discourage people theorizing about the direction the mod is going in ;)

[empath]

Not to belabor the point, because I entirely understand the game design reasons for requiring fuel for steam, but smelting aside, if it's hot enough to cook food, it's probably hot enough to boil water, which is hot enough to produce steam.

I think this just goes to show that game designers should be careful with throwing out the laws of thermodynamics (which notch did when he made netherrack burn infinitely). Giving players infinite energy is always a problem.

Not necessarily, you just have to account for it down the road in further feature design. I think it totally fits the game-logic (and general mythology) that hell is composed of infinitely burning material.

Frankly, if I were in Notch's shoes, I probably would have just given the player an infinite fuel-source as a reward for making it to the Nether. Perhaps one that only functions that way *in* the nether to encourage travel and construction there...but still. By the time a player manages to get to the Nether in the game, coal is pretty much done as a limited resource anyways considering its availability. To me, it is really only an early-game resource to begin with which becomes largely meaningless mid to late game given that normal mining operations to gain iron and diamond will give you more coal than you know what to do with..

Yeah, but is the answer to make coal entirely useless or give you something useful and interesting to do with vast piles of coal that most players have? In the real world, we're still mining coal, even though we have nuclear power. Maybe not something you need to babysit constantly like a furnace, but something you can dump excess coal into and forget about.

[BinoAl]

Yeah, but is the answer to make coal entirely useless or give you something useful and interesting to do with vast piles of coal that most players have? In the real world, we're still mining coal, even though we have nuclear power. Maybe not something you need to babysit constantly like a furnace, but something you can dump excess coal into and forget about.

I think this is actually a great idea. We do gain nethercoal, which makes us use less coal, but we need something that will let us use more, for something pretty great. I have the feeling we will get something like this in the new age fc is adding, though :D

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, but is the answer to make coal entirely useless or give you something useful and interesting to do with vast piles of coal that most players have? In the real world, we're still mining coal, even though we have nuclear power. Maybe not something you need to babysit constantly like a furnace, but something you can dump excess coal into and forget about.

Well, I *have* said that Nethercoal will be seeing more use in the future, so I think I'm already aware of that ;)

[Haniale]

Oh my, people who get design! /swoon

Far warning, I'm ovelry verbose and tend to explain things the long way. Basically, assume "Wall of Text" anywhere you see my name. You'll may also encounter larges amounts of sub-topic rhetoric, metaphoric and logic when used for explanation or expansion. I generally provide a tl;dr, but expect full post reading if that tl;dr is an interesting summary.



I'm going to make my contribution by way of playing devil's advocate, in the hopes that flat out going "No, this instead!" will get responses that spread as well as moving forward;

Steam age is not next. There is no reason other than an obscure, non-definitive sound effect to think this. Wood -> Steam would be akin to BTW -> Buildcraft, or irl Bronze -> Industrial.

CT -> Saw gives us Wood Age. CT allows us to start making tools with which to work wood, and ends when we progress to the most efficient method of slaughtering wood(automatic dispenser + saw).
During this age, we also gain three things: Heat, via hibachi, Air via windmill, and Water via waterwheel. Also during this age, we discover four collection methods: Animal Husbandry, Crop Farming, Mining, and Transport & Exploration. I combine T&E because Exploration is basically the transportation of people and information - the methods for one can easily be applied to the other.

Steam, I believe, requires mastery of both Heat, and Water - and there's a strong argument for Air mastery as well. We have only mastered wood, thus far.

I propose the next age is Water, and is started before the end of the previous age: With the invention of the waterwheel. Water mastery would allow better automated collection, transportation and farming utilities, as well as force of water. The age could contain things like water gates, mechanical pumps, waterwheels which can provide transport(with buckets or something instead of paddles).

Finishing the age, I suppose, would require invention of the pump - a tool which can be used to counter waters biggest draw back: It doesn't go up. This would, I guess, require the modification of water to being finite, but this has already been established as a Steam Age issue as well.

Water is already an established collection utility, but let us assume it's now finite - we need to automate the collection of water too, or locate a body that's flowing downwards(which itself would be finite, though for programming reasons we'll assume very slow to empty in place of ground seepage and other "real" filling methods). Water age would bring the need to control the flow of water. Initially, dirt channels work, but aren't very effective(as dirt, sand and gravel suck up water), so the trough is invented. Trough doesn't help us "get" water, so much as move it, so a better system of collection is needed - the scoopwheel(waterwheel with buckets) picks up water from a body and puts it in the trough, and is powered mechanically. This is probably happening a fair distance away, and extending the waterwheel is not feasible, so we use the windmill at a close location, instead. Additionally, finite water means holes fill - a full hole will flood, destroying the crops/annoying the furry poopers, which gives rise to finding control mechanisms, like a gate and water detector.

This flooding issue means we have to turn the flow off sometimes, preventing the waterwheel being an infinite, perpetual source of power in the following ages, by way of not allowing it to constantly pump it's own water back up, which becomes the bottle neck allowing us into the Air Age.

As for methods, I think any Age should also improve them. Farming is obvious, and with 1.8 we're getting a(n?) Husbandry update with how animals work*1, making some educated guesses over the teaser info, I think we can assume feeding and watering animals will be a vM component, which would work just fine with Age of Wood and Age of Water(Age of Nom would be interesting). The pump could allow water to be used for a primitive powered digging drill, and as an improved hopper by allowing collection of minerals from destroyed cobble/stone(think gold panning), thus improving Mining operations. T&E wise, floating platforms fit the theme nicely, being used first as river barges, then stationary(or dockable?) platforms, then finally sail powered ships - acting as a step into the next age.

I think we can all see my thinking on evolving ages, so I'll not expand Air too much, but suffice to say improved height constructs, and "moving air" fuels - ropes and pullys to make bridges, flying foxes or climbing rigs, kites for signal or light transport, and thermal currents. Currents leading to Heat Age, by way of "why is hot air better?", with lots of(and improved) fire, coal, wood and stone use and providing better cooking, smelting and water transport by way of evaporating it at the bottom of the mountain, and condensing it at the top in a catchment array, leading, finally, to the study of Steam - an age already discussed, but I saw no mention of transport improvement by way of hot air balloon, so I'll add it here.

End rambly advocate play.


This idea has it's issues - mostly because things like the hibachi are no longer really thematically suitable, given the nether is still a ways off. It also requires a fairly large rework of basic ideas. I'm not sure if the time investment is worth it, being a hobby, but I'm sure the results would be amazing.

At this rate it's gonna need to be renamed BTPMEE - Better Than Pretty Much Everything Else.

This also seems like a good place to mention something BTW opened my eyes too: Feature creep as a result of mods, and mods as an answer to feature lacking. When discussing, we should be careful to only Add, not Replicate.

*1 I've seen hinting at:
1) Finite animals, in that they don't auto spawn anymore, you're just given some at world gen - killing is perm now.
2) Breeding, instead of respawning - presumably, baby animals, and care taking requirements such as sickness, shelter, feed and protection from wolves.
3) Better farming overall - this was an "also" type given out, so I'm assuming crops, which will give more BTW possibilities.



... sry4essaylol!!!


TL;DR - Steam requires mastery of Heat, Water and Air, in a similar manner to Wood mastery, in addition to a change of core game mechanics, such as making water finite. Ages should also improve the core play methods either by efficiency, accessibility, or enjoyment. Any additions made should also not just be "Waterwheel +1", and and provide new content either by possibilities of combination, or using previously unused features(anchor + platform + rope + pulley = elevator, but elevator + minecarts + water + hopper = even better mining system).

Edit: Clarity.