Might I make a request regarding Rule #1

[FlowerChild]

People have the right to say dumb things and people have the right to dislike, disagree and feel bad but where do we draw the line?

I agree with you entirely man, which was really the crux of my counter argument above, and why I am often so resistant to change in this regard.

However, in this case I think a solid argument has been made for why given the historical context the word "retard" (r-word? :) ) is particularly hurtful and sends a message far beyond what is likely intended.

It's not like I pull punches with stuff like this or am lacking in words that convey the meaning I intend. Rule #1 on the forums is clearly written as "don't be an idiot". I don't think anyone is arguing that a word like "idiot" is hurtful beyond its intended purpose (which is hurtful in itself) or even arguing I shouldn't use it despite it being downright mean on occasion, and that word is entirely sufficient to convey my intended meaning without it also creating a bunch of painful side-effects which in no way contribute to me communicating what I want to.

I think the "line" largely comes down to what I said above about "collateral damage". If you are using a weapon that inflicts damage beyond the intended target, and winds up hurting people that you have no intention of harming, you may want to reconsider your choice of weapon. You are not only creating a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering through your actions, but you are also likely weakening your own cause in the process.

Again, I think the Confederate flag analogy works very well there. Being very rebellious by nature, I can be very sympathetic to people being resistant to federal authority. However, there's no way in hell I'm going to stand under that flag while doing so.

[Aesc]

A lot of the hypotheticals people are bringing up are kind of weird to me because it's already stuff I've had to deal with? Like, I stopped using the term 'grammar nazi' because I feel it's inappropriate to compare a simple grammar prescriptivist to the people responsible for a genocide.

I guess I find it a bit odd because there are so many alternatives to offensive phrases which aren't hurtful. Once I started making an effort to stop using words that hurt people I ended up having a lot of fun combining different profanities together and now swearstacking is an automatic thing for me like the words I stopped using were before.

I do think that 'special' is offensive, not just because it's once again insulting people by comparing them to disabled people but also because 'special education' started out as something that was supposed to make life easier for disabled people and now it's used to mock us. (It's why a lot of disabled people prefer terms like 'accessible education' - they don't have the same history of mockery.) Incidentally, the word "idiot" originated as a medical term, similar to "retard" - you can still see this in terms like "idiot savant" to refer to autistic people with supposedly superhuman talents. It's why I don't use that word either, although it's not on the same level as "retard".

As for the chocolate example, Rawny, that's a false equivalency. There are so many alternatives to slurs that can be used, whereas there's only really one word for "chocolate". I also don't have a problem with warning for chocolate if someone asked me to? I spend a lot of time on tumblr where extensions like tumblr savior or xkit can block posts based on tags given, so if someone who followed me said (even anonymously) "I need to avoid posts about chocolate, can you tag them please" it's only an extra second to add "contains chocolate mention" or "not safe for chocolate anon" or something. Maybe it's because I also have some rather unusual triggers, but I don't find that sort of thing to be an imposition.

It's basically what FlowerChild was talking about earlier - it's not about the thought police telling you to be politically correct, it's about making minuscule changes in your behaviour to avoid hurting real people.

[FlowerChild]

It's basically what FlowerChild was talking about earlier - it's not about the thought police telling you to be politically correct, it's about making minuscule changes in your behaviour to avoid hurting real people.

Well, we won't agree on everything man :)

I am not a particularly "nice" person in some contexts (in others I think it can be argued I go far beyond the norm in trying to help people), and I am fine with that. I use hurtful language when I feel it is warranted, and I am fine with that too. I've spent the better part of my life coming to terms with my nature and finding some kind of balance with it (whereas I tend to suspect most people have many more "negative" qualities then they will allow themselves to admit, and are largely living in constant denial of their nature). I am very human, and being aware of both my strengths, weaknesses, and overall limits contributes greatly to both my happiness and productivity, so it tends to be a win/win both for myself and those around me.

So to me, like I said above, it comes down to avoiding hurting people other than those I intend to. I absolutely never intended to hurt you for example, and when it became clear to me that I inadvertently had, it also became clear to me that simply wasn't right and that a change was in order.

[Aesc]

It's basically what FlowerChild was talking about earlier - it's not about the thought police telling you to be politically correct, it's about making minuscule changes in your behaviour to avoid hurting real people.

Well, we won't agree on everything man :)

I am not a particularly "nice" person in some contexts (in others I think it can be argued I go far beyond the norm in trying to help people), and I am fine with that. I use hurtful language when I feel it is warranted, and I am fine with that too. I've spent the better part of my life coming to terms with my nature and finding some kind of balance with it (whereas I tend to suspect most people have many more "negative" qualities then they will allow themselves to admit, and are largely living in constant denial of their nature). I am very human, and being aware of both my strengths, weaknesses, and overall limits contributes greatly to both my happiness and productivity, so it tends to be a win/win both for myself and those around me.

So to me, like I said above, it comes down to avoiding hurting people other than those I intend to. I absolutely never intended to hurt you for example, and when it became clear to me that I inadvertently had, it also became clear to me that simply wasn't right and that a change was in order.

Yeah, I absolutely do agree that there are situations where being hurtful is totally warranted. I just try to make sure that the only people I affect are the ones I specifically target, which it looks like you try to do as well, and I appreciate that. :)

[FlowerChild]

Incidentally, the word "idiot" originated as a medical term, similar to "retard" - you can still see this in terms like "idiot savant" to refer to autistic people with supposedly superhuman talents. It's why I don't use that word either, although it's not on the same level as "retard".

I wouldn't even consider altering my use of the word "idiot". I think it comes down to common usage IMO, and the implied connections. "Retard" is obviously drawing an analogy to the mentally disabled. I do not believe that association is implied with "idiot" even if there was a connection at one time historically.

I think that you can find some negative connotation in the etymology just about any word. "Spade" was used as a racial slur at some point, but it's still just a shovel, and I certainly don't question myself about it every time I am dealt a hand of cards. If you look hard enough you can be pretty certain that a "rock" was used to hurt someone.

Many of these things ultimately come down to judgement calls, but I think it's important that people remain cognizant of that, be willing to make those calls, and not go overboard. To me, when we try to apply universal rules like "no words that hurt anyone" is when we start crossing the line into Orwellian territory and start radically reducing our vocabulary and ability to communicate (or even think in terms of) concepts other than those that are approved by the hive mind.

I'll just mention that there is not a tiny bit of aggressive intent from my part, and if it came out like that I apologize, maybe it's because us Mediterranean types tend to be a bit too passionate when we try to express ourselves. Again, I was just trying to get my point of view across, and I am sorry if it came out wrong.

Seriously don't sweat it man. The reason I didn't mention specifics in first bringing it up was that it wasn't a "big deal" in the first place. I could just feel things getting a bit passionate, and given the sensitivity of this topic, wanted to remind people in general to keep it cool so as to reduce the liklihood of it getting out of control.

I only got into detail about what I meant because Aesc misinterpreted what I was saying in thinking that I was referring to his use of the word "you", and I wanted to clear it up.

It makes me proud that these forums are a place where we could even broach this subject without it descending it a flame war. I can't even honestly discuss something as seemingly innocuous as game or mod design most places on the net without it turning into WWIII, never mind a subject this volatile.

[Aesc]

Incidentally, the word "idiot" originated as a medical term, similar to "retard" - you can still see this in terms like "idiot savant" to refer to autistic people with supposedly superhuman talents. It's why I don't use that word either, although it's not on the same level as "retard".

I wouldn't even consider altering my use of the word "idiot". I think it comes down to common usage IMO, and the implied connections. "Retard" is obviously drawing an analogy to the mentally disabled. I do not believe that association is implied with "idiot" even if there was a connection at one time historically.

Yeah, there are words that I consider to be off-limits to everyone and words that I understand other people using and don't necessarily have a problem with but I still prefer not to use just in case, and "idiot" is definitely in the second category for me. (...I also don't use it just because I find it much more fun and satisfying to call someone a "wilfully ignorant little shitmonkey", for example.)

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, there are words that I consider to be off-limits to everyone and words that I understand other people using and don't necessarily have a problem with but I still prefer not to use just in case, and "idiot" is definitely in the second category for me. (...I also don't use it just because I find it much more fun and satisfying to call someone a "wilfully ignorant little shitmonkey", for example.)

Yeah, I can hear that. The thing is, for me I think a real point of contention here is that words aren't strictly their definition. There's a texture to them that isn't covered by it.

Take the following words for example:

stupid, idiot, moron, retard

I've listed them in what I view to be the degree of severity. Sure, by definition (unfortunate associations aside), you're pretty much saying the same thing. But obviously, they will be taken in completely different ways based given their relative severity in use which may even mean the difference between a chuckle and a fist fight. I agree the last one needs to be retired, however, there is a trade off in terms of loss of texture in the language used.

I remember I had a rather nasty argument with a girlfriend once over my occasional use of the word "cunt" for exactly that reason (not at all as a reference to her btw...I wouldn't have attempted to argue that point). She thought (and I'm sure many here would argue the same as the rare occasions that I've busted it out still tend to live in infamy) that it was a word that needed to be retired given its history of use in relation to sexism. I on the other hand was arguing that there was absolutely no other word in my vocabulary that would serve in its stead (I reserve it for very special occasions) and that insults related to genitals and in varying degrees of severity were common for both sexes, thus not implying any specific defect associated with being female. I still maintain there's nothing quite like it, and in some situations, I believe that only a well timed and delivered "cunt" will do, whether the recipient is male or female.

I was handed 1984 at a very early age, so the erosion and manipulation of language and its influence on the thought process has always been a big concern of mine. As you've seen in this thread, I'll hold onto individual words for dear life as a result, even when they are distinctly unpopular.

[BinoAl]

I remember I had a rather nasty argument with a girlfriend once over my occasional use of the word "cunt" for exactly that reason...

Hah, I've gotta say, as offensive as the word is, I've never heard it's use defended quite so well. I honestly never even had the thought of both genders having equivalents of it.

[jakerman999]

Hah, I've gotta say, as offensive as the word is, I've never heard it's use defended quite so well. I honestly never even had the thought of both genders having equivalents of it.

They do? The only one that pops in to my head would be "dick" but I'd equivalate that more to "twat" myself. Please enlighten me, I'm always eager to add on to my vocabulary, expletive or not.

I still maintain there's nothing quite like it, and in some situations, I believe that only a well timed and delivered "cunt" will do,

I do agree, although perhaps not quite to the intended meaning.

[BinoAl]

They do? The only one that pops in to my head would be "dick" but I'd equivalate that more to "twat" myself. Please enlighten me, I'm always eager to add on to my vocabulary, expletive or not.

I more meant how calling someone a dick has the same sort of connotation to it as calling someone a cunt, and is still just another word for your genitals, not that there was a literal match 1:1.
Wow this conversation feels really odd, for some reason.

[Rianaru]

Someone before briefly mentioned that the word 'retard' is used in technical context. In the medical field, it may have a questionable history, but in biology and microbiology specifically, its a very common term, for example "A high density of enzyme X would severely retard the transcription of the lac Y gene" as in the rate of transcription would slow down or become inhibited.

I just wanted to point out that it is not always used in the derogatory sense. There are definitely wide-ranging uses for it. To be honest, I haven't even really though of retard as having anything to do with mental capability for a while now. Sadly, and this seems to be the case far too often with medical/scientific terms, people who don't know what they're talking about will take perfectly acceptable words and use them in a way that they weren't really meant to, eventually twisting it into a derogatory term that normal people use. It almost always turns into a downward spiral of the targets of the word being over sensitive and the people using the derogatory sense of the word being under sensitive.

Ideally, the word retard should be used as a descriptor(not just for mental capacity, and definitely not just for humans) like being tall or having brown hair. And people who use the word retard should be much more aware of their word usage. In high school I heard it used all the time and I hated it for the same reasons I do now, because it was inaccurate and ruining a perfectly acceptable word. Calling someone retarded is almost universally an insult, but it really is stupid on an incredible amount of levels when I get yelled at for saying someone has a case of mental retardation. Saying it any other way would just be dancing around the actual words, and all it means is that some mental capacities will not develop as far as what is considered the norm, and other capacities will develop beyond the norm. Even non-savants that fit into this group have some abilities that go slightly beyond normal brain function, or at least according to the research I've seen(disclaimer, not a psych major, just found a few studies out of mild interest). Maybe it's just that many people get unreasonably offended when you imply that they(or in this case, mostly their children) aren't normal, no matter if it's bad, good, or neutral.
(Just reread the last paragraph, and realized it came out as angry. At worst, I meant it to be mildly irritated, so apologies)

Anyways, I just wanted to say that the word retard is incredibly useful and accurate to a lot of people. It's not just associated with mental disability, and it's definitely not universally derogatory. I didn't see much in the thread pointing this sort of stuff out, so I figured I should throw in my 2 cents.

Also, is anyone else bothered by the fact that you can call someone a dick as much as you like and no one will bat an eye, but as soon as you say twat or cunt you get harassed for being a sexist pig? At least on the west coast of the US. I've seen this happen tons of times, and it always screams bigotry to me.

EDIT-Yeah I guess people are bother by this, just didn't read previous posts carefully enough

[TheGatesofLogic]

Some of the bits in this conversation are more fucked up than a football bat, but i very much appreciate the discussion i've sparked here. I am quite glad this discussion has gone the way it has, since my initial post was in response to a distinct feeling of "wrong" in my stomach, which isn't actually a good source for a logical debate. Despite this i'm glad to see this become less emotional and more logical in its progression Thank you.

Now, after some gradual deliberation i've come to my own conclusion that this word is not bigotry to the extent of my knowledge save possibly one bit I'll save for later in this post, and like FC, I would love to hear a logical argument pushing that sentiment aside, however I have not yet found a truly compelling one as of yet. Regardless I personally will still abstain from this word as polity, I already never say the word so that shouldn't be too hard, and really this is more for personal reasons than anything else.

One thing that came to mind however as a possible argument is with regards to personal description. We say retard on a basis that is insulting, however the direction of that insult has particular meaning as the word has a double negative meaning, one part being mentally disabled and the other being slowed in process, so if the word is directed at a person or a person's actions I can see it being a legitimate form of intolerance and therefore bigotry. On the other hand, If the word is directed at a concept, idea, object, or some widespread social phenomena (i'm thinking on the order of political/religious movements and larger scale conspiracy groups, and though I may point those ones out for a reason It's more generalized than those examples alone) then the word can easily be interpreted as not being a form of bigotry at all. Does this make any sense to you guys?

[FlowerChild]

Anyways, I just wanted to say that the word retard is incredibly useful and accurate to a lot of people. It's not just associated with mental disability, and it's definitely not universally derogatory. I didn't see much in the thread pointing this sort of stuff out, so I figured I should throw in my 2 cents.

I think it's been clear to everyone participated the particular use of "retard" that we've been discussing here, namely, when it is used as an insult.

Some of the bits in this conversation are more fucked up than a football bat

Speaking of collateral damage, the above is like tossing a hand grenade into a crowded room...filled with gasoline. Given the volatile nature of this conversation, throwing out non-specific insults like that being dismissive of unspecified points that have been made is exceedingly dangerous and not particularly cool.

I'm going to lock this thread down as I think it has run its course, has been extremely constructive, and now at this point threatens to devolve without constant moderation as late comers feel obliged to throw in additional commentary without perhaps being aware of everything that has transpired already.

I want to thank all the constructive participants here for not only maintaining a civil debate about a very sensitive topic, but also for teaching me something about myself in the process.