BTW: Design Philosophy

A place to talk to other users about the mod.
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morvelaira
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by morvelaira »

First off, I am sad that I overslept. Many of the thoughts and ideas I had so far have very much been said and pointed out already! I will be as elitist as a non-Turtle can be and just say, "Great minds think alike!"
Battlecat wrote: In both places, the waterwheel and the mechanical power provided was critical to increasing iron production speed and yield. In game right now we use iron very inefficiently. People were working iron long before the mechanical approach, mechanization improved efficiency and quality (more heat = better steel). Perhaps a mechanical approach could yield new options in minecraft as it did in the real world. The iron age seems to be an obvious next step, particularly within FlowerChilds state goal of enhancing and extending minecraft without massively altering the original gameplay.
This hints at one of the things I wanted to mention, and it also ties in to some things folks said earlier about tying an Age to a specific event. In my mind, when I think about technological ages, I see the flow of human history where people took the resources around them and used them to their best ability for the good of the population. Over time as the population's skill at gathering and using the materials in the way they knew to grew, they reached a saturation point - some point where they could not progress further. Either there was a limit to the resources available, or there were just not enough hours in a day to accomplish anything more using the established methods.

And then, something would happen, and it would change the way everyone did things.

A good (and BTW applicable example) is the milling of wheat into flour. In ancient times, nearly every common woman in the village would begin her day by collecting water for the household, baking the day's bread from yesterday's flour, and then milling flour for the next day. They did this by hand with simple stone tools. I don't know if any of you have ever done this process before, but it took me a good hour and a half just to mill enough flour (1.5 cups) fine enough for a loaf of bread. Larger families, as was desired in those times, could easily go through several loaves of bread a day. The introduction of mechanical energy to mill flour was a lightning rod in that situation. In the same hour and a half, instead of having enough flour for one loaf, I could have an entire day's supply, and possibly more depending on the exact efficiency of the design. Even if I still have to attend the millstone while it is working, I can do other things - and I will certainly have the rest of the day to devote to more resource collection and use. It's the same as Battlecat says above - mechanical power increases the efficiency of output as a side effect gives people the freedom to do other tasks if additional output is not needed.

As for how this applies to BTW and it's (st)ages - there's been talk of bottlenecks, and events, and even lines drawn at individual blocks. I think it's less linear. Less, "Age start here - Age end here" and more flowing through peaks and valleys of efficiency. In the beginning we collect our resources by hand (literally) and build one little hut because that's the most efficient way to do it. We can't really do more than that to start - we've reached our maximum efficiency. When we start crafting tools though, it opens up a whole new world of things to do. Opportunity, efficiency. Over and over again.

Ok, my brain is exhausted now. As a side note - congratulations on Turtle status Adjudicator79. You deserve it for truly living up to the meaning of your name. With my medical conditions it's often difficult for me to focus my thoughts enough to join into these sorts of discussions. Your beautiful framework that you maintain in this thread is just what I need, and being able to participate makes me happy beyond words. Thank you so very, VERY much.
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James_Past
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by James_Past »

[battlecat]"Idle thought here: Maybe the dung could substitute as the flux/carbon source in steel production."


Dung could be fermented to create methane which is a very efficient heat source, although it also has the lowest heat combustion levels of any hydrocarbon. But it's not like we have access to any of the other ones.


[morvelaira] "Ok, my brain is exhausted now. As a side note - congratulations on Turtle status Adjudicator79. You deserve it for truly living up to the meaning of your name. With my medical conditions it's often difficult for me to focus my thoughts enough to join into these sorts of discussions. Your beautiful framework that you maintain in this thread is just what I need, and being able to participate makes me happy beyond words. Thank you so very, VERY much."

Indeed congratulations are well deserved here.
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ServantOMallard
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by ServantOMallard »

I have to say, I agree with most of the opinions on here regarding the non-linear method of progression through different tech levels. I personally like the way FC has implemented the "Age system" into MC, I think it gives the game a lot more (here's this word again) realism, in terms of not having everything put on a plate in front of you like in vMC. Sure, once you've got your tree and crop farming automated the resources are flowing, but it's one hell of a slog to get there. Not that that's a bad thing, I have to say the sense of achievment when I managed to build my first windmill far surpassed anything vMC has to offer.

Getting back on track, what I interpret an age to be is first the discovery of a new material/property, a series of small steps as the new functionality of these "new techs" are realised, followed by a boom as these technologies allow a greater level of efficiency of what was previously available. Of course these new technologies would not be possible if it wasn't for the mastery of previous technologies, and the cycle continues.

With this in mind I think FlowerChild has hit the nail on the head with the way the player has to start small, constantly learning and combining new processes. Once these processes are learnt they can be applied to what has previously been done to make it more efficient, the hand crank to waterwheel conversion being a prime example.

And that's about it from me!
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Capax infiniti
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Capax infiniti »

First off, like others here, I don't believe that vM has any definable Ages. I think we have only seen one age so far in BTW; that is the age of wood.

I see the BTW mod right now as two distinct parts. The first part serves to flesh out some of the concepts (specifically, redstone) in vM. It encompasses the DB, BD, hibachi grill, Light block, and the cauldron. The second part of the BTW encompasses the age of wood and introduces the concept of mechanical power. I don't think there is any definable start or end date (nor does there need to be, in my opinion), but if I had to I would agree with the OP and say that this age starts with the crafting table, and ends with the saw.

What I would really like to touch on though is what happens within an age. In my mind there are several stages that happen within any age that really help to flesh out the entire concept:

Scarcity: This stage is characterised by a lack of not only resources, but knowledge. Very little useful work will be done in this stage. In the age of wood, this means that the player will be spending a lot of time gathering resources to build up a sizeable stockpile, and will be very dependent upon the environment.

Use: This stage begins when necessary resources become relatively common. This is where the bulk of the work is done and this is the time period that the player will spend most of his or her time in. Specifically relating to the age of wood, this is the time when the player actually begins to use the resources he or she has gathered. The player becomes much less reliant on the environment with the large scale domestication of wheat and hemp, and takes the first tentative steps toward automation.

Mastery: Resources in this stage are quite abundant freeing the player to take full advantage of everything the age has to offer. In the age of wood, this means one thing: automation. Large automated mob/wheat/hemp farms dominate this stage. The player is no longer dependent upon the environment.

So the age of wood can be seen as a "declaration of independence" by the player, moving the player from a position of complete dependence on the environment to one where he can act independently of it. This is key, in my mind to predicting what is to come. I think the next age or ages will be characterised by the player taking more macro scale control of the environment and bending it to his or her will.
Adjudicator79
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Adjudicator79 »

So I finished DMing tonight and immediately ran to the computer to get my BTW fix. And then I realized that I couldn't decide between updating and playing Minecraft or logging in and commenting here! *sigh* Once again my geekiness rears its blatant head.

Now to catch up on the evening's conversations.

Triskelli: Spot on with the Age of Steel idea. I like the concept of refining pre-existing technologies into more useful applications as the next logical step of an Age. And Battlecat's idea of belts being used for bellows tickles my imagination. I will (to the best of my ability) never make a suggestion on the mod's design philosophy or technological progression, so I'm not going to say "ooh, bellows should be in the next update." But I do think they work within the framework FlowerChild has established and has the potential to make sense as a game mechanic for modifying the furnace into a forge. It also has the added advantage of being inherently multi-block technology, which I have previous stated I'm a big fan of.

morvelaira: The efficiency framework is a great way to view an Age. I don't think it addresses all of the elements needed in a developer's perspective to craft a strong and stable tech tree, but it seems to jump out at me as a very useful lens for the player to view an Age through. If the player approaches the Age with a perspective of "I'm going to learn how to make Steve's life easier" - that should naturally lead him to pursue technological advancements that organically draw him towards the next Age. That's a very workable framework for a design theory.

ServantOMallard: Thanks for joining us! I hope you'll continue to darken our doorway and contribute to our discussions!

Capax: I absolutely love your description of the interior of an age. We were so focused on defining what an Age was and where it started and ended, that we did end up glossing over what is contained within it. The Scarcity/Use/Mastery (SUM) paradigm seems to fit so well as to be obvious, though I think it's one of those simple things that takes a very deep mind to dream up! SUM definitely strikes me as the natural way for the developer to view an Age through. It gives him/her tools to identify where certain tech falls. He/She can ask "is this going to help move the player from Scarcity to Use or from Use to Mastery, or is it just a tweak on a current Use?" I would think that having that framework to hold planned additions up against would make things much easier. In real life, I often have to evaluate opportunities and say "does this fit with what we are trying to accomplish?" Not "would it be fun?" or "is it cool?" but "does it match our goals and objectives?"

I think the same thing might happen in game design as does in real life. Sometimes you pass up on activities, events, or opportunities not because they wouldn't be amazing, but because they are not actually what's important. That can be an incredibly tough choice to make, and I know I have played games where I thought that a feature was added because it was a awesome but not necessarily because it fit the game. And usually that feature ended up being unbalanced, broken, or even short lived in the game context.

So well done Capax. I very much like that framework as a design element to evaluate the internal structure of ages from the developer's perspective.

Well, that's enough for me, I'm going to go track down some wolves and make me a dung factory before bed. :-)

Edit: We will segue nicely into an amended topic for tomorrow. While not leaving the discussion surrounding Ages, we will shift to focus a little bit on the following, which is your homework for tonight. Watch, listen, and be ready to discuss!

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morvelaira
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by morvelaira »

Adjudicator79 wrote: Edit: We will segue nicely into an amended topic for tomorrow. While not leaving the discussion surrounding Ages, we will shift to focus a little bit on the following, which is your homework for tonight. Watch, listen, and be ready to discuss!
-youtube snip-
I'll be getting up early tomorrow and heading out on a trip, so I'll put my two cents in now.

Steam... steam! OMG steam!

Wait... Will this be steam, or will this be steamPUNK? If it's Steampunk, we need brass/bronze!
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thenoobfactor
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by thenoobfactor »

I have suspicions that Flowerchild is already adding steel. I mentioned it back on the MC forums thread, and I think I remember FC hinting that he was already adding in one of the things mentioned at the time (the other suggestion that i could see within a few pages of that being steam boilers that have already been asked about over 9000 times).

Of course I could just be full of shit. It would be cool thought, and a logical step in Steve truly mastering his environment and moving into an industrialized stage, advanced metallurgy was a very important step in human technological development.
Capax infiniti
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Capax infiniti »

Adjudicator79 wrote:
Spoiler
Show
Capax: I absolutely love your description of the interior of an age. We were so focused on defining what an Age was and where it started and ended, that we did end up glossing over what is contained within it. The Scarcity/Use/Mastery (SUM) paradigm seems to fit so well as to be obvious, though I think it's one of those simple things that takes a very deep mind to dream up! SUM definitely strikes me as the natural way for the developer to view an Age through. It gives him/her tools to identify where certain tech falls. He/She can ask "is this going to help move the player from Scarcity to Use or from Use to Mastery, or is it just a tweak on a current Use?" I would think that having that framework to hold planned additions up against would make things much easier. In real life, I often have to evaluate opportunities and say "does this fit with what we are trying to accomplish?" Not "would it be fun?" or "is it cool?" but "does it match our goals and objectives?"

I think the same thing might happen in game design as does in real life. Sometimes you pass up on activities, events, or opportunities not because they wouldn't be amazing, but because they are not actually what's important. That can be an incredibly tough choice to make, and I know I have played games where I thought that a feature was added because it was a awesome but not necessarily because it fit the game. And usually that feature ended up being unbalanced, broken, or even short lived in the game context.

So well done Capax. I very much like that framework as a design element to evaluate the internal structure of ages from the developer's perspective.
Thanks :)

Also, a couple of cursory thoughts on the video:

-It is entirely possible that Flower could be leading us on a wild goose chase for his personal amusement. ;)
-If the sound at the end of the video is indeed what I think it is, I am cautious about taking it too literally. A sound like that could allude to many different things.

I am very interested to see what others have to say. Looking forward to tomorrow.
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Battlecat
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Battlecat »

Capax infiniti wrote: -If the sound at the end of the video is indeed what I think it is, I am cautious about taking it too literally. A sound like that could allude to many different things.

I am very interested to see what others have to say. Looking forward to tomorrow.
I think I heard the same thing you did. As you say, that sort of sound is associated with many different systems and devices. I'm looking forward to tomorrow as well.
PatrickSJ
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by PatrickSJ »

The way I view it people desire new experiences. They either explore (outward seeking) or stay relaxed/lazy and create (inward seeking or expression). BTW supports that by providing the tools for new experiences at your settlement and by providing newer, more efficient means of automation which are all inward seeking. Ultimately I see BTW as a mean by which the player can "build" a near-creative mode. Yes, Mojang is going to provide a creative mode, but this a creative mode with a challenge. However, to me all art is meh unless it is functional art. I find the turbine at the museum is more interesting than the painting.

vM supports the desire to create since it is a sandbox. To further secure our ability to relax, be lazy, and provide users with uninterrupted creation time we could have collection progressions, push the user towards providing better security (Mob Hordes, Player manipulation), and promote the creation of devices both as a means of collection but also as functional art. Using the 4X model each axis has progression that we can call ages or stages, but each axis further develops Steve's ability to create anything imaginable and fully functional. Each axis also has constraints that must be overcome.

tl;dr version:
Explore axis is faced with scarcity and risk. Biomes have inherent risks and scarcity profiles. Explore further and build transportation/distribution network to progress

Expand axis is based on your ability to get blocks to interact with each other and the environment. Build more elaborate and interactive art/architecture to progress.

Exploit: Naturally progress as Explore and Expand axis intersect. Expansion is no good with a scarcity of resources and exploration is no good without an expansion to benefit.

Exterminate: Smarter mobs and hordes. No BFG, but reward the player for being clever and able to survive an onslaught.

Each axis has rewards as you progress and each axis supports the others.

----

Explore: BTW currently doesn't do much to expand on the explore axis. Once you reach the Nether it is done. Part of the problem is that you have no real reason to explore in MC. The terrain is too generic. Perhaps terrain features and resource scarcity (biome/terrain type based) could be implemented. This in turn creates the need to travel greater distances (1.8 may expand biome size). Quick, efficient travel is now desired. This can be improved with specialized rails and a thought out transportation systems. BTW can build this by improving travels options as nearby biomes are depleted.

Transition based on mastery of biomes and the expansion Steve's network. Quicker, safer, or quick and safe transportation system for players and resources (via expand axis).

Terrain features to overcome: Gorges, wide rivers, bigger lakes (so big you can't see the other shore), varying water heights. Make travel more difficult, require Steve to think ahead and ask "Do I want to build bridges and tunnels here?" and "What will I need to gather to get though this?"

Also, biomes should have their own challenges and rewards thus further incentive to travel based on a players skill level and desires.
Swamps: More iron towards surface (bog iron), less lower down. Requires less mining, but need to face challenges in controlling flooding. More water from top to bottom, but in small pockets (1-2 block. Hit a wall and flood!)
Mountains: More iron from top to bottom, higher chance of lava, less water. However, requires more mining to locate resources.
Plains: Average (standard)
Water: More rare resources (Lapis, Gold, Diamond). Too much water, but all those resource you normally find to be scarce are more abundat. You could dig, but flooding a really big danger.

vM also provides useless maps. Perhaps they can be improved so that they provide a equipable minimap option rather than needing to hold it in your hand. Minimap can allow the setting of markers or can be placed like painting.

----

Expand: BTW drives player's desire to expand through the expansion of their bases. This is done via functional art. The player can build more functionality, but only by following a progression of ever more complex and expensive devices. This in turn drives the need to exploit by having these collection ages.

I think progression for the expansion axis begin with the ability to create a functionality dependent on previous functionality (all interacting with each other) and ends with the ability to mass collect the resources underlying the next progression. However, I view prefer to view the progression based on the ability to interact and manipulate the environment according to various stimuli. Each new stimuli and your ability to measure and control is an age and ages can overlap.

Environmental Stimuli: Water, Wind, Heat, Time, Light.

As an aside: I get the feeling that there will be a way to grind blocks (Glass into Lens components) that is powered by mechanical power and will also require belts. Maybe, maybe not. But it feels highly possible.

Light - We can create light using light blocks and presumably the lens will allow direction. I'm guessing the Detector block will respond to a focused light source from the lens and output a redstone signal so we would be covered for sensors there. Maybe also Dark Block which removes light? Also, if the lens requires a minimal light level to work or reach X distance then using Light and Dark Block to determine a light level from 0-15 could be done. We can then create counters and add/subtract then interacts with redstone. (1 light level per 4 blocks?)

Time - Eh.. A few ideas here. A watch & bed are all that currently available. Watch measures, bed manipulates. But the watch despite being a sensor cannot interact with the world. Maybe a way to measure & interact with time? A clock block and some form of repeater that can be adjusted to respond to time? 1 = Midnight-Sunrise, 2 = Sunrise-Noon, 3 = Noon-Sunset, 4 = Sunset-Midnight is what I imagine could be done. The clock block outputs a specific type of signal that can only be picked up by the time repeater set to the right time segment which then converts to redstone signal.


----

Exploit: A natural outcome of the intersection between Exploration and Expansion ages. Each expansion offers options to mass gather resources. Improvements in expansion allow the player to increase yield based on biome. Together they are tied via constantly improving transportation systems. However, players do not want to constantly traveling so they setup factories at each location. The ultimate exploitation is system fully automated factories tied to a central transportation and distribution system over a far-flung empire. Get what you want, where you want, when you want it. Do this can you have made yourself master of the universe. Self-made creative mode. Bragging-rights.

----

Exterminate: This axis progress based on your ability to survive 1v1, 1vM. However, you have to seek out enemies for the most part. BTW can provide bait blocks or something similar the attract natural spawning mobs and direct them to you over greater distances regardless of line of sight. Lay traps, confuse the enemy, divide and conquer to survive the onslaught. Need better mob AI though with threat recognition. Otherwise too easy to exploit for a mob grinder. Maybe baited mobs become smarter while non-baited are dumb and thus susceptible to mob traps.

Confuse the enemy - Lens! Cast light to attract mobs or confuse them with blinding
Divide and conquer - Pulleys/platforms to separate sections, doors, pistons to play pinball.
Other ways: Strong gusts of wind from bellows to slow/repel advances

It is too easy to kill right now one on one. The best we can do is improve on our mass-slaughter abilities which saws appear to handle quite well. Perhaps flipping this around and having BTW create an onslaught which only clever, prepared players can exterminate and survive. Having a BFG should not be enough to survive.
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Flesh_Engine
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Flesh_Engine »

PatrickSJ, that's an excellent post and i tend to agree with you on most items.

I think that the eXploit area might currently be the one where BTW is defining its Ages; like FC said; once you have the pulley and saw blocks you have most of the other tech mastered, that you could harness at that time, and should be able to set up some sort of automated treefarm, reducing your dependency on that resource and thus opening the next logical step.

Compared to history this feels natural to us; we struggle with something, come up with a different item or way to go about it and it becomes less of an issue, allowing us to proceed or enhance our lives until the next roadblock needs to be removed.

Extrapolating from this; an interesting issue to bring up is where the Nether fits into the picture; consider the following;

Look at the screenshots of everyone's hempfarm; you will see either; Powered Light Blocks or Glowstone. Which means that you have been to the Nether to collect the Glowstone Dust to make these blocks, yet to make decent progression in the Age of Wood you require large amounts of Rope for the Axles providing mechanical power.

Keep in mind the alternatives to this are; Fire and Lava (these can't be used since it needs to be directly above the Hemp), Jack O Lanterns (Pumpkins are rare, and don't grow) or just plant the whole thing under the Sun and effectively halve your growth rate.

If you are lucky you can go to the Nether after about 30 minutes into the game (Lava lake & clever mouldmaking) after getting a bucket. If not, you will need to get Diamonds or be patient. Also consider that this currently is less of an issue but as FC gets more Ages into the mod it might pose a problem or feel out of place.

FC has also hinted at the future of Nethercoal; which, as implied by the name, needs steady access to the Nether.

This could mean that the Nether is an Age in and of itself or is literally a source of resources to fuel our inevitable industrialization.

Edit; spelling errors :(
"An engine of flesh can do that..." // "Man feed Machine. Machine feed Man..."
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Triskelli
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Triskelli »

So, the Industrial Revolution is upon us, eh? Instead of pondering what may be in the mod, we should think more about what it could possibly mean to gameplay.

For our purposes, steam-power is the ultimate expression of exploiting the natural world. High-quality and high quantities of metal are needed, as well as a proper understanding of how to wield fire and water. (Anyone that's burned down their minecraft house knows how tricky that can be.) But since we'll need iron and coal more than ever before, it stands to reason that we'll be given more effective ways of harvesting it, driven by our new steam engines.

This will emphasize building mines again (The first engines were used as water-pumps for coal mines), but boilers, pipes, and grinders will likely take up massive amounts of space, encouraging the same sort of compartmentalization present in the age of wood. What remains to be seen is if the new "mechanized" block will receive mechanical input, or if they will run purely off of steam power.

Image

*EDIT*

Off-Topic, but relevant.
Morvelaira asked if the new update will be Steampunk. As a connoisseur of that genre myself, I can say that it will most likely NOT be steampunk, but will be strongly inclined to steampunk by virtue of being steam-driven. But that's not quite enough.

It's hard to define when something stops being historical fiction and starts being steampunk, but to paraphrase Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, "I know it when I see it." For me, a dividing factor for any of the "-punks" is a sense of absurdity about the object, either in scale, concept, or application. So, a Victorian hand-drill isn't steampunk, but a handheld steam-drill WOULD be.

We'll just have to wait and see what Flower includes in his mod before making any solid decisions.
/rant
Adjudicator79
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Adjudicator79 »

So, hopefully all of you have had a chance to watch your homework. If you haven't, scroll up to my previous post and the YouTube video is embedded there. Also, take a moment to look at the very short exchange between FlowerChild and me in the New Age thread (viewtopic.php?p=1324#p1324). You should all be proud of the fact that we've actually been able to encourage positive responses out of FlowerChild. One of the whole points of this thread was to create a place where intelligent and useful conversation was welcome and that seems to have been accomplished in some small way. So well done all!

A few brief replies before we move on to the day's amended topic.

morvelaira: Safe travels on your trip, we look forward to having you back when you return. As for the steam vs. steampunk, FlowerChild has made clear that he disagrees with Notch's perspective that Minecraft is a medieval world. Given that, in a game design context, medieval worlds are a genre (fantasy) and steampunk falls into that same type of description, I don't see any chance at all of a steampunk approach. Of course, there will be texturepack mods that let you make it look all steampunkish, but there already are many of those.

PatrickSJ: Amazing first post! Very well thought out and clearly conceptualized. We're very happy to have you join the thread. Without doing a line by line response, I'll state that I agree in principle with much of what you say and in entirety with your assertion that BTW focuses on the exploitation element of gameplay at the moment. The intersection between BTW and vM will be very interesting after Notch releases the Adventure Update. A rl friend of mine mentioned yesterday that we are often forgetting that Notch has made it clear that there always has been an intent to make Minecraft more of a game in the traditional sense. He argued, and I think he might be right or at least on the right track, that the "game" we think of as Minecraft right now is actually nothing more than the environment and setting for the real game that is yet to come. If that has a basis in truth, then BTW's function as an expansion of gameplay is relevant in a very particular range of Minecraft's overall development. While the engine has obviously proved to be popular in its own right (over 10 million subscriptions!), the focus on BTW-style modding may shift in the general Minecraft community once the Adventure Update drops. We'll see.

Flesh_Engine: I like your points about the interaction of the Nether with current tech level progression in BTW. It's an element we often skip over, since we are just so used to the Nether being accessible. But it does seem to be a leap to have players still in the Age of Wood adventuring out into the hell dimension to gather lighting equipment. My guess is that, at some level, many of the current Nether-based tech elements in BTW are there because the real implementing tech that would allow them are not present in either vM or BTW yet. Maybe FlowerChild is planning on adding in supplemental updates to the Age of Wood that will be contextually appropriate once future Ages are further developed. I see leaving Nether exploration as a step designed to occur in a more advanced Age than currently happens.

Triskelli: You stole my thunder, mate! This is exactly what I was going to propose for today's discussion. There is a real danger of trying to guess what blocks and advancements will be in the New Age. And I definitely want to engage in that speculation. But I don't think that's what this thread is about. Instead, well, I'll move that down to the amended topic entry below.

Amended discussion topic: So, after watching the homework several times, and reading FlowerChild's responses in the announcement thread, I agree with most others that this seems to be a nod to the Age of Steam as our next Age. As Triskelli so ably pointed out, we need to make sure that we don't fall into the trap of trying to second guess what blocks and processes are going to come out of this. Instead, let's try to focus on what should be happening to both the player and gameplay in a new Age - essentially only our second Age in the game. Remember, we're trying to unpack game design philosophy here, so we need to take a step back from the individual blocks and look at the "big picture."

So here's the amended discussion topic questions:
- What should the player be able to do differently at the start of this Age that sets it apart from the previous Age? Is it just "bigger and better" or is there more to the shift in Ages?

- Is this an exploitation step again, or will it encourage exploration as well? Assuming that transportation would be a large part of this, does that change significantly how the player will interact with the environment (as PatrickSJ implies above)?

- And, because I can't resist, what do you see as the next bottleneck for technological development? Without being too tied to reality (because redstone isn't real, remember!), do we actually jump straight to a redstone age after this? If so, how does a game developer limit the use of redstone to sub-Age levels until it's ready to "come into its own"?

I hope you'll all enjoy the amended discussion topic and I look forward to reading your replies!
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Triskelli
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Triskelli »

If the Crafting Bench is the entry into the Age of Wood, then there will likely be an analogous block to usher in the "Age of Steam", one that makes new blocks and block-types possible. My money is on either a forge or a lathe, to process a crude material into a more refined one. It's this new material that will turn around and be used in the new Saw recipe, and the saw is indicative of the blocks to come.


The "New Age" will most likely encourage further exploitation after a brief round of expansion. The only way I see it encouraging exploration is if we're given a cheaper means of making rails, and a better reason to use them (Locomotives, anyone? =]). The Age of Steam will be all about economy of resources, much as the Industrial Revolution was for the real world. Mass production!

It may be a little early to discuss what the Age after this one could be, though. I doubt it would be Redstone, as it's already far too precious in regulating our machines. Electricity would be redundant, and stone seems a step backwards at this point. So I guess I'm saying I have no idea. =/
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SterlingRed
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by SterlingRed »

I'd still see this as the exploitation step. Controlling and manipulating the environment around us and developing technologically has been what BTW is all about. That's likely not to change.
Of course more exploration could be required in order to find necessary resources (or more space) for whatever the next age brings.

As discussed previously and hinted at by FC, dung and mechanical power are the bottlenecks for the next age. I'd also guess that iron will also be a heavy requirement in recipes (much like wood has been up until now). So iron wouldn't necessarily be a technological bottleneck so to speak but a resource bottleneck.

I'd say the next age will be bigger and better. But it will build off the previous age as a natural technological development as steve gets smarter. FC will not create features that do the same things we can already do by another means, so we can assume the next age will allow us to do things we weren't able to do before in the game, or were extremely difficult/annoying to accomplish.
Danyo
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Danyo »

- What should the player be able to do differently at the start of this Age that sets it apart from the previous Age? Is it just "bigger and better" or is there more to the shift in Ages?

I think it's not gonna be so much bigger and better, I think this age might start to focus more on the automation of smelting minerals etc, crafting tools and the likes en mass, be them new or old ones, only FC will know that answer. I'm sure he'll make it balanced enough.

- Is this an exploitation step again, or will it encourage exploration as well? Assuming that transportation would be a large part of this, does that change significantly how the player will interact with the environment (as PatrickSJ implies above)?

I think it'll always have a part exploration, minecraft will never be sit in a spot and get resources, there will always be some motivation to go out, or at least, it should have. Transportation would be a nice thing, but the problem with that is that it wont make exploration easier, unless you'd go for planes or the likes of it. If it's not for exploration, what exact reason is there to have transportation?

- And, because I can't resist, what do you see as the next bottleneck for technological development? Without being too tied to reality (because redstone isn't real, remember!), do we actually jump straight to a redstone age after this? If so, how does a game developer limit the use of redstone to sub-Age levels until it's ready to "come into its own"?

I don't think you can call dung the bottleneck, it'll be the "fuel" ( Wich could be taken litteral, since dung has been used as fuel in the past ) of the new age, kinda like wood was the fuel of the wood age, but I don't think the age of dung has such a nice ring to it, so we'll probably call it whatever the dung produces. I think redstone should be partially ignored cause from a minecraft standpoint, you'd be in the age of electricity, even though what redstone currently does is "magic", it still fits the description, and it doesn't really fit the age theme well. I consider it more as a tool then anything else, just like a shovel and axe, to make things actually go faster so you don't have to do it with your own bare hands.
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Battlecat
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Battlecat »

Well the age of steam and the industrial revolution in general had a massive impact on our world. There are several themes that I can think of that Flowerchild could potentially tap for an Age of Steam:

1: Speed: Steam industrialization allows the production of products more quickly. It could drive more powerful and faster machinery for every purpose from metalworking, sawmills, looms and even mining. That justifies in my mind why the saw will likely move up the ladder into the next age. The current better than wolves saw is an industrial device.

2: Transportation: The steam locomotive is an obvious application, but steamboats, steam tractors, road construction and even conveyor belts all were operated by steam power in the early industrial revolution.

3: Better Materials: It's more of a pre-requisite than anything. A structurally function boiler requires very high quality materials to survive the pressures I shudder to think how many people were hurt by exploding boilers during the initial development stages of steam power.

Steam power was really the next stage of mechanical power in the real world. It took systems like the waterwheel and dialed up the power and speed of the system. The applications of steam poweer hit just about every aspect of human life, which is why harnessing it was key to the industrial revolution. But strangely enough it also needed that early mechanical power to produce the materials necessary to build the early boilers in the first place.

I believe the next stage of development will use some sort of crafting device(s) designed to operate off the existing mechanical system. And I suspect one of the early ones will be an improved metal smelter/metal processing system to make metal of a quality appropriate for a boiler.
PatrickSJ
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by PatrickSJ »

I watched the video, heard the whistle, and read the posts but I cannot reconcile myself to saying steam powered tools are next. Steam power exists to either drive existing machinery quicker or to provide the force needed for machinery that would not be driven by the lower force provided in lower techs.

I can see FC leading into it with improved materials that greater yield vM recipes (1 Iron + ? = 1 Steel. 6 steel makes 24 rails instead of the 16 with Iron. 50% yield improvement). However, a full-fledged steam system feels wrong for BTW at it would replace much of the existing mechanical systems. Why have waterwheel and windmills when boilers can produce steam to drive machinery? Waterwheel and windmills serve all mechanical power generation needs.

I cannot think of what mechanisms would be introduced that fit BTW that need the greater force only steam turbines can produce.

The biggest gains in the development and control over steam-based machinery though resulted in the world being a lot closer together. Again, this gets back to the idea of allowing Steve to effectively settle and manage larger areas, but there is still a need to drive the exploration that forces Steve to need to settle those larger areas in the first place. Having the world be closer together is what prompted a technological revolution. A closer world means an increase in goods that cannot be procured locally and an increase in goods that can be procured locally, but which cannot be produced in sufficient volume.
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Battlecat
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Battlecat »

That's a good point PatrickSJ. My one thought on that is that if a steam rail system is the goal, FlowerChild could be targeting creating an alternative the dysfunctional powered minecart. But you are right on that.

Unless Flowerchild intends to add limits to how many mechanical devices a single waterwheel can power simultaneously of course. Then steam energy would make a great deal of sense, acting as a more powerful enhancement to the old mechanical system just like in the real world. Dwarf fortress which has a fairly interesting mechanical system has limits like that. One waterwheel in there produces X power and devices consume Y.

I'm divided on whether that is a useful or meaningful change to make to the mod though. Realism vs fun is a tough line to walk.
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diegokilla
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by diegokilla »

Adjudicator79 wrote: - And, because I can't resist, what do you see as the next bottleneck for technological development? Without being too tied to reality (because redstone isn't real, remember!), do we actually jump straight to a redstone age after this? If so, how does a game developer limit the use of redstone to sub-Age levels until it's ready to "come into its own"?
Unfortunately, I have a VERY difficult time translating my thoughts and ideas to text, wo I will try and keep this short and to the point:
I believe mineral gathering will be the next bottleneck. As it stands now, as players advance through the "ages" that are currently implemented in game they frequently need to make trips into mines/caverns (depending on play-style) to gather minerals. This is all fine and dandy, but I find myself wondering: "I now have a huge automated tree/hemp/dung/mob farm, but is till have to delve into the pits of minecraft to search for iron and such" . Also: "After pillaging the immediate area of my surrounding base of operations, I have to venture further outward (while still underground) to harvest more minerals". Possibly I'm just lazy, but I can honestly envision the ages, while maybe not making mineral gathering automated, making it (mineral gathering) easier. I'll list a few concepts to help explain my points here: (THESE ARE NOT INTENDED AS SUGGESTIONS, MERELY A WAY TO HELP EXPLAIN MY IDEA!)

1. The first stage: has players simply hopping down through caves and exploring them, or stip mining, vMC style.
2. Second stage: you have a hemp farm, you can now create ropes and possibly elevators. This will expedite going to and from your cave/strip mine.
(These two are already there in-game) ^
3. Third stage: A means to find minerals more easily. This could be simply an item (lens+belt=spectacles or some crazy shit) or an entirely new sytem. (Similar to the way Mechanical power is an entire sytem)
4. Fourth stage: Havesting efficiency increase. At this point, the player would be able to create complex machines that could possibly "drill" through large sections of earth. The player won't really have to go and mine out stone to get minerals at this point. Build the machine. Let it operate. Collect.
5. Fifth stage: Collection Efficiency increase. Here the player will be able to Collect mass quantities of minerals and have them shipped back to his Base of operations. Having them shipped back will allow for the player to spend more time setting up new mining machines to collect even more resources.
6. Sixth stage: I have an idea for what I think this final stage would be but my brain is a bit fuzzy, and it is only half making sense even in my brain, so I won't even bother posting it... for now :P

Well now that I have wrote an entire book. (For what I'm sure will seem like "The way BTW SHOULD be" although it is ENTIRELY not my intent)
I'm really sorry if this got off topic. (If it is TOO off-topic, let me know and I'll just delete this post)I guess I better just end it there.
One last thing, this topic needs a Ventrilo server, or skype chatroom :P
Adjudicator79
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Adjudicator79 »

I'm at work, so I'm limited with time to post, but I'll hop in very quickly here on Battlecat and PatrickSJ's conversation. Also, diegokilla, no worries. This is the kind of development of ideas that we like to try to promote. As long as you don't try to suggest things for the BTW mod (which you were clear you were not) and are rational about your explanations, you'll be fine here. Welcome!

I agree somewhat, PatrickSJ, that an Age of Steam that is only "bigger and better" doesn't really seem to follow FlowerChild's previous updates. But I do think there is there is distinct room for improvement over windmill/waterwheel power sources with, to use your example, a boiler. Right now, axles are limited to a three before a gearbox is needed. This is both difficult from a design and a resources standpoint. I could see the introduction of pipes connected to a boiler as a way to allow for longer transmission of power with fewer resources. Yes, they would be scarcer resources, as you can't set up an automatic iron factory like you can a tree farm, but earlier someone pointed out that one defining characteristic of an age would be the ability to have enough of the relevant resources so that building no longer was a battle of conservation of supplies vs. exploration of sources. Assuming that he's mastered the Age of Wood, I can see Steve upgrading his system with steam power that has a smaller footprint, can transmit that power further for fewer resources, and maybe has some additional benefit - like faster processes in multi-block systems, maybe? For example, it would make complete sense to me that a steam driven power source hooked into a millstone would generate flour (or fibers) much faster than a waterwheel-powered source, just as the waterwheel was faster than the hand crank.

I also see room here for the different source of power to allow for new uses of existing technology. People have been asking for the saw to cut stone for a while. I can see a logical technological progression that says that in the Age of Wood, the saw could create gears and moldings and panels for you, but in the Age of Steam, the saw can cut up stone and maybe help in the creation of pipes or some other key element to the Age. There could be any number of "upgrades" to existing technology that would allow for expanded use with the introduction of a new power source.

Just my $0.02. Now back to work!
PatrickSJ
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by PatrickSJ »

Adjudicator79 wrote:Right now, axles are limited to a three before a gearbox is needed. This is both difficult from a design and a resources standpoint. I could see the introduction of pipes connected to a boiler as a way to allow for longer transmission of power with fewer resources.
You may be unaware of this fact, but the 3 space limit on axles is a vM limitation. FC has previously said that the axles can be a max of 3 spaces due to how many bits are available. Apparently redstone has no specific orientation, but axles do. Thus shorter transmission distance.

/Edit - To have steam pipes (will need turbine at 1 end to covert to mechanical energy) travel greater distances they would need to be without orientation.
Adjudicator79 wrote: Yes, they would be scarcer resources, as you can't set up an automatic iron factory like you can a tree farm, but earlier someone pointed out that one defining characteristic of an age would be the ability to have enough of the relevant resources so that building no longer was a battle of conservation of supplies vs. exploration of sources. Assuming that he's mastered the Age of Wood, I can see Steve upgrading his system with steam power that has a smaller footprint, can transmit that power further for fewer resources, and maybe has some additional benefit - like faster processes in multi-block systems, maybe? For example, it would make complete sense to me that a steam driven power source hooked into a millstone would generate flour (or fibers) much faster than a waterwheel-powered source, just as the waterwheel was faster than the hand crank.
Actually the main methods to increase yield via surface mining include dredging and hydro-blasting. I can imagine a dredger working the lakes and slowly digging down as they haul ore to the surface. However, high amounts of power and metal shovels on a belt would be needed. A possible use for steam power and it requires a number of blocks to interact. Wheels, boilers, axles, belts, gearboxes, high-resources. However, not easy to assemble/disassemble when you need to move. Dredgers move by floating and digging down in an arc. Excess is shunted to the shore and dredger moves on.

FC has indicated that he doesn't want to build block/items that are too complex. Complexity in BTW is achieved by interacting blocks with basic behaviors to creating complex systems. A dredger might be too complex vM & block-wise. Maybe a tweak to TNT (shaped charges?) to improve mining rates by blasting tunnels combined with the base minecart system and the platforms could be used to improve mining speeds. Basic blocks w/ complex systems.

Overall, steam power has possibilities, but it will likely be along the line of simple blocks creating complex behaviors and more than just improved versions of Age of Wood mechanisms.
Last edited by PatrickSJ on Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
empath
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by empath »

I think one fairly easy thing that could be done in the next age is to improve the efficiency of the furnace -- that is, to get more iron out of each block of ore, perhaps through the addition of mechanical power to run a bellows.
Capax infiniti
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by Capax infiniti »

I was (and still am, to a degree) very skeptical of the entire concept. Steam power seemed superfluous in a game that already had the concept of essentially infinite mechanical power built in. However, the more I think about it, and read what others have said, the more it makes sense.

First, my working assumption:

-I do not believe that Flower would make obsolete any of the already existing items in btw or alter them in a fundamental way, just to make room for new items. (such as nerfing the number of machines you can distribute power to with current sources).

So for me the question becomes: "What other advantages does steam have that would make it a worthy addition to a mod that already has the concept of infinite automated mechanical power built in?"
The OP and others I think touched on a few when they mentioned powering multi-block machines, a more compact size and the ability to extend power over greater distances. I am going to have to disagree with the OP on one thing though. I do not think that mechanical power will 'loose turf' to steam power. If we take your example of the millstone, I think it will be left as is. The fact that they are cheep and can be used in unison largely negates the need for a 'super-millstone' in my opinion.

- What should the player be able to do differently at the start of this Age that sets it apart from the previous Age? Is it just "bigger and better" or is there more to the shift in Ages?

The 'age of steam' will be characterised by a shift from mechanical power to steam power, and as I have indicated previously, I think there will be little overlap between the two. It is "bigger and better" in the sense that you will be able to make more powerful machines do more complicated and resource intensive tasks. However, more broadly, this can be interpreted as a shift from reliance on infinite resources (wood) to a reliance of finite resources (iron, and possibly coal). This will force the player down a road of constant expansion and extraction to keep up with the demands of his machines. Essentially, as others have said, we will witness the industrial revolution, minecraft style.

- Is this an exploitation step again, or will it encourage exploration as well? Assuming that transportation would be a large part of this, does that change significantly how the player will interact with the environment (as PatrickSJ implies above)?

I touched on this in my answer above. As we are now relying on finite resources, we will be forced to constantly explore, expand, and extract. With the aid of our more powerful machines of course.

- And, because I can't resist, what do you see as the next bottleneck for technological development? Without being too tied to reality (because redstone isn't real, remember!), do we actually jump straight to a redstone age after this? If so, how does a game developer limit the use of redstone to sub-Age levels until it's ready to "come into its own"?

I honestly think it is to early to speculate. I think as the age of steam progresses we will get a better idea of what comes next. However, I don't think we will be seeing a new age for awhile though.
empath
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Re: BTW: Design Philosophy

Post by empath »

If you have infinite fire from hibachis, doesn't that make having to use nether coal for steam kind of nonsensical?
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