Vanilla Feature court - Session 1 - Analog Redstone

[phamtrinli]

First off, FC I know you plan on placing BTW on the back burner (promising to keep it functional with current versions but basically not doing much more than that) while you work on RTH. That said I doubt the vMC team are going to keep their fingers out of the pie as far as Redstone is concerned.

As to whether or not this implies it would be "easier" to leave Redstone be, or pull out changes I have no idea.

Second, all the whining about analog and digital is largely pointless... The "analog" signal still behaves in nearly all ways like a digital signal. IF it is left in all you would need is an additional repeater to fully convert the signal from ANY analog output into digital. While most signals REMAIN DIGITAL! You need to specifically add a comparator, or make a special chest to use the analog features.

While the ability to do a few new things with Redstone is promising ultimately I think it would be easier to strip out the weighted chests, and comparators and ignore the Redstone changes. I say this with sadness, for I love my Redstone contraptions.

[SterlingRed]

I'm probably just repeating sentiments already expressed in this thread. But I can see how this puts you in a difficult spot. Mojang had messed with a system that is so integral to the mod, and they can't be trusted to not continue messing with it. I haven't even played with the analog redstone and yet I still feel confused about it. Partially because it's a deviation of the Minecraft redstone I already know, and partially because I'm struggling to see what value or tools it gives me that I couldn't do before. Its confusing for sure.
As far as analog in btw goes, it either should be gone entirely or separated with a clear distinction from redstone.

[devak]

So a real quick assessment here:

what analog redstone allows:

-hoppers
-weighted pressure plates
-comparators
-daylight sensors
-magic inventory detectors.

FC, unless you have some unbelievably awesome implementation for analog restone, i do not quite see what the point is in keeping it. We already have better hoppers, i don't understand the point of weighted pressure plates, i hate comparators, i don't use daylight sensors and inventory detection is VERY metagamey.

I'd rather stick with the current true-and-tried digital redstone system.

[DaveYanakov]

Daylight sensors have been part of BTW since the lens was implemented in any case. Either way I've been conditioned to assume that any block that can detect or output variables requires soul urns to produce and none of these vanilla additions include them in the recipe.

[0player]

Daylight sensors have been part of BTW since the lens was implemented in any case. Either way I've been conditioned to assume that any block that can detect or output variables requires soul urns to produce and none of these vanilla additions include them in the recipe.

We are not talking about recipes, I think, we're talking about feature. If such a feature was introduced in BTW, recipes were obviously be different anyway.

[FlowerChild]

Dave was making a joke, and a rather funny one at that :)

[TheGroovyWorkshed]

My two penneth:

From what I've seen very few of the most useful contraptions made from components from the 1.5 update significantly rely on redstone's new analogue nature but instead from weird or exploity interactions between the hopper, dropper, comparator and minecarts. Much of the new stuff that can be done can be boiled down to a few behaviours as far as I can tell.

Firstly, the predictable nature of hopper updates (i.e. the time it takes to move one item or the order in which they are moved). This can be used to remove a specific number of items or a specific item from, for example, moving carts, allowing for easy variable storage/manipulation or even long distance track destination selection for rail systems. This predictability was removed from BTW hoppers to prevent these 'exploits'.

Secondly, inventory detection. It is quite immersion-breaking due to various stack limits and the maths that have to be done to work out the output level. I've seen randomisers made through the use of items of variable stack size in one inventory which is obviously an exploit. Most things that can be done through inventory detection can be done through use of BTW hoppers, dispensers, trip-wires (or pressure plate and bellows) and shift-register circuits. Granted it is a lot bulkier and more difficult (and slower) but those are defining features of BTW.

Thirdly, vertical item transport. Already dealt with in BTW in a much more elegant fashion.

So you can see that most useful builds could already be done in ways much more conducive to BTW and those that can't were either already dealt with in various forms within BTW and axed/adjusted or rely on behaviour of the new components that is about as exploity as piston BUDs were before they were dealt with in an immersive way in BTW.

I'll definitely feel a twang of disappointment when I see a cool build and realise that it isn't possible in BTW but I feel that the damage the comparator, dropper and hopper would do to BTW farms or contraptions would be much worse. An appropriate course of action in my eyes would most probably be to axe everything, take a look what new builds are appearing in vanilla and see if any of the behaviours they rely on are worth implementing in a polished form just like the buddy block. This is the opinion of someone who has built some pretty complex and unnecessarily huge redstone devices in the past (my triple piston extender repeatable recycling wheat farm was a site to behold) but I am obviously not a game designer so take my opinion with a pinch of salt (as if you need to be told).

[Thyrllann]

I've played around with the analogue redstone, and to be honest it seems like an extraneous feature, tacked onto the pre-existing mechanics. As has been previously stated, the real interesting features (for vanilla users at least) are the hoppers/droppers/comparators, not the differing lengths of redstone signals. The only real uses for the analogue system seem to be for the weighted pressure plates (which are not in any way useful in survival. I mean, come on, 598 items to produce a full-length signal?), and the daylight sensor (to turn lights on when ambient light levels reach a particular level), the functionality of which has been in the mod since Lenses and Detector Blocks were added.

In short; would have been an interesting mechanic if implemented from the start, but as it stands, not worth keeping.

[Shengji]

What I would like to ask the community is this: what would you think of the idea, and would you have thought it would have been a worthwhile inclusion in the mod? If I would have popped up out of nowhere with it as a new feature in BTW, what would your reaction have been?

I would be rather shocked, this would seem to infer that a drastic and major overhaul of redstone was coming up and I don't see how this would be possible without breaking existing redstone devices. If it were announced, I would expect nearly every redstone device to use it in some way to justify it's inclusion, which would require a massive rebalance of almost every aspect of the game!

The question I've been asking myself quite a bit as of late is "would you have put this in the game?"

No. This is a decision that needed to have been and was made when redstone was first implemented. As redstone is such a huge part of the game even in the early game, changing the way it works has massive repercussions on how minecraft plays.

But, I'd like to hear what other people think of it within the above context. Is this a feature you would have wanted in Better Than Wolves?

Adding more complexity does not mean more options are available to the player. It can often mean the player is able to do less. Making a simple system do complicated things is rewarding challenge. It is my belief that this is essentially an aesthetic change - it is designed around the concept of having torches glow at different intensities depending on how full a chest is.

Of course the clever player will be able to use the new systems to great effect, however, I don't believe the changes will bring a drastic leap over some of the things clever players are coming up with already. I can see that redstone contraptions will get bigger, involve more components and wiring to achieve the same thing and bring a slew of one block solutions none of which will add functionality that was unavailable to us previously but will be used aesthetically!

[milkmandan]

The primary problem is that redstone is designed to be digital. There is no way to propagate an analog signal. With something that could do that, you could send an shaped analog pulse with information stored in each tick. Then take a bulky decoder (and probably even bulkier encoder) and you could do rail switching without taking a 4 block wide track for the entire length to transmit the request.

Maybe note block could vary volume or pitch when powered via analog, piston will only push x number of blocks (how this will be useful, I don't know).

About the only useful thing I see would be the signal transmission possibilities. All in all, fairly low bang for the buck.

[DaveYanakov]

I get the feeling that the original intent of redstone was to be analog, otherwise repeaters would never have been needed. Redstone would just be powered or unpowered without the need to record how bright it should be as you got 16 meters from the power supply. That said, even starting from that, an analog redstone overhaul would not be worth the dev time and not appropriate for the pre-launch crunch period.

[FlowerChild]

I get the feeling that the original intent of redstone was to be analog, otherwise repeaters would never have been needed. Redstone would just be powered or unpowered without the need to record how bright it should be as you got 16 meters from the power supply. That said, even starting from that, an analog redstone overhaul would not be worth the dev time and not appropriate for the pre-launch crunch period.

I don't agree. Infinite transmission distance would also be a huge performance sink. I don't think it offers any indication that it was ever intended to be analog.

[Wafflewaffle]

From a redstone noob perspective the fact that an analog system is taking place of a digital one, means very little to me. Most of the my simpler devices will still work and i never dared designing my own complex machinery. Turning digital to analog will only reinforce my need to copy others designs (tnx Noir) due to the added nuances of a more complex system.

That said i would like to learn, baby steps instead of plunges into deep waters so to say. Having a paralel system to redstone would help with the learning curve but i would never expect btw to have a... Secondary pro redstone system for the more eletronicly inclined. Btw is not about that. Its one single experience, one seamless learning curve of all systems intertwined presented bit by bit until you have mastered "the game". Having to double back to learn again about something its not how i play btw.

Its a cool little addition that wasnt missing from MC and never felt it would be something i would see coming from btw.

[ExpHP]

Here's the thing.

I do understand why some of the more inventive types here (Noir, etc.) are in favor of it, though. And it isn't just about having more power; it's about discovering how to use that power. It's a new mechanic to explore and build upon and improve old ideas with, and I'm sure they would love to be able to do so in BTW.

But for the same reasons stated by many others quite early in the thread, I just don't see this going with BTW. I especially don't see what purpose there would be to having FC design a different analog system unless there are things we have in mind that it could be used for. We already have a daylight sensor, the comparator is kind of silly just there on its lonesome, and exactly zero of the other uses of analog redstone (inventory, etc) are reasonable.

[johnt]

I think it would only be a good idea if it allows an interesting systems challenge. I can think of one way to do it, which would be somewhat difficult to do with binary redstone -- a system where you have to perform different actions in the same place, based on certain conditions-- for example the time of day, what kind of input, how many different resources you have available on so on. It would be nightmarish to try and transfer that much information using a single binary signal, but might be easier given 4 bits. I can imagine something like using analog data to select which block the block dispensor dispenses being part of this (not an actual suggestion, though, because it would break builds.)

I don't think it's worth the effort to create such a system just to justify analog redstone, though.

[Yhetti]

I am a proponent of the simplicity that redstone has been built off. Comparators are cool enough, but if they get in the way of the simplicity at all I think they should be obliterated. However if they don't, they're just something that I may or may not use.

Also, DIGITAL REDSTONE! just kidding.

[Bevanz]

Also, DIGITAL REDSTONE! just kidding.

Redstone is currently digital, actually.

[Xeo]

I get the feeling that the original intent of redstone was to be analog, otherwise repeaters would never have been needed. Redstone would just be powered or unpowered without the need to record how bright it should be as you got 16 meters from the power supply. That said, even starting from that, an analog redstone overhaul would not be worth the dev time and not appropriate for the pre-launch crunch period.

I've always felt that it was first implemented for basic logic like opening doors in a small area and made to run on a short signal to prevent extreme performance loss, a.k.a small scale digital logic. Then people started using homemade repeaters ( I remember when you had to use them so fondly now) and the pressure to compact that into a block got to Notch and suddenly the variable strength started to feel like a mechanic/restraint which was used a bit in variable output/input builds. Then Mojang came along and felt they would appeal to that push by "shifting the redstone paradigm" and what's left is a complete lack-luster system that hurts my head to try and justify.

[Yhetti]

Also, DIGITAL REDSTONE! just kidding.

Redstone is currently digital, actually.

Technically I guess. But when I think of digital I think of specific signals(reacting to different off on cycles) being sent through I/O am I correct in that being the definition of digital? If I am then redstone is digital but you'd have to be using it in that way.

[FlowerChild]

I've always felt that it was first implemented for basic logic like opening doors in a small area and made to run on a short signal to prevent extreme performance loss, a.k.a small scale digital logic.

It's not just a matter of performance in encouraging people to build small scale. By having a transmission delay built into the system (passing through torches or repeaters) it helps distribute the load in terms of the number of block updates and corresponding messages that need to be sent from server to client per game tick.

Infinite transmission distance means a potentially infinite number of such updates that need to be performed in a single tick, or requires the client to check a potentially infinite number of blocks (some of which might not even be loaded anymore) to see if any given block is powered on the client side.

It just wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to implement it that way as a result, which is why I think finite transmission distance is in no way indicative of some kind of original analog intent for redstone. It's just a practical necessity for any such system, digital or analog.

[FlowerChild]

Can we quit it with the off-topic guys? This isn't the place for you to seek definitions of what constitutes analog or digital.

[Stormweaver]

Hmm.

If you take away all of the analogue redstone fluff added since the comparator, you get left with...well, the comparator. Take away all the weird stuff added to that, and you get a fairly simple logic-y block which, IIRC, did allow for the creation of some circuits that are normally far too bulky to be used in a functional minecraft base. I get the impression that a basic, non-inventory detecting comparator would have made for a nice bit of late game polish for some redstone systems, but that a lot of bad-for-BTW (and minecraft, in some cases) features have been created in association with it.

So; if a simple logic block that would allow for *new* redstone contraptions as opposed to smaller versions of existing ones were to be suggested for BTW, I'd tentatively support it. If a whole new analogue system was suggested, I'd point out that something large enough to justify it would have been in your plans for future phases already.