4.62 Balance Observations & Discussion

[skrat6009]

You can't grind charcoal into dust anymore?

Wow, now I feel like an idiot. I wasn't aware that you could in the first place. I guess I had gotten so used to other mods that had coal dust where charcoal wouldn't work that I didn't realize that BTW was not one of them.

[FlowerChild]

I eagerly await the arrival of the BTW Halogen Oven!

Hehe...well, I didn't mean combine a Campfire with a Light Block in-game. Just using the same blockID ;)

[Sarudak]

So... I've played the early game with hardcore hunger several times over now and I feel that it's still too easy. I find that by my first night I generally have around two full stacks of meat which is enough to keep me going for a long time. There's so many animals and they're so easy to kill that I feel like it marginalizes any other potential food source in the early game. I care little for mushrooms and pumpkins (other than harvesting some for later farming), I don't need to fish unless I decide to settle down early and I've never even come close to starvation except by intentional choice.

The simple rules I follow are this:

1. Always walk never run unless in combat
2. Don't settle down. Keep moving and kill every animal you see.
3. Don't do any mining on the first day you want food and leather armor first.
4. As soon as you have enough leather build some leather armor.
5. Always stay above peckish to preserve the ability to sprint when needed.
6. Avoid engaging skeletons and creepers whenever possible, spiders and zombies are fine as they can easily be dispatched with a stone sword and leather armor
7. Never engage a monster when close to half health
8. Never eat food if you would gain fat from it

When I follow these rules I find the game to be very easy.

I have not actual died once yet due to the hardcore hunger changes (although I have gotten the dying status twice) but I tend to play very cautiously (and even more cautiously now). Overall the change that has had the most effect on me has been the penalties from a low health bar. I perfectly understand the change to regen to make it much slower but I often find myself walling myself in when injured and then going to get a beer or tabbing out to read forums or something while steve stands in his self-made tomb and regens his health. Not sure what can be done about that if anything as I don't want regen to go back to how it was.

So far I really love the hardcore armor changes. Especially cause I actually feel motivated to make leather armor. I have not yet been able to find enough iron that I feel like it would be worth it. Iron I am having a hard time with. I feel like I don't want to make iron tools other than a pick because I need my iron for shears and a later cauldron. So far that seems about right. The only caveat being that diamonds feel almost as expendable as iron perhaps more so. On the other hand this is a welcome change from the previous balance where I tended to hoard my diamonds and only use iron since I had so much of it and I knew I could always melt it down later. My experience may be different from most because I tend to do more branch mining than spelunking. Perhaps I will need to shift my habits to accomadate the iron changes.

[FlowerChild]

Well, the question I'd ask in response is: is it better?

Given you've done multiple play throughs, I would assume the answer is yes.

Is the player now considering food as a serious matter? Again, from the strategy and "rules" you've developed above, I'd say yes.

I'd also say that I've opened up multiple strategies for doing that, as mine, which involves settling down early and working on early game farmable food sources, which is radically different from yours, seems perfectly viable as well.

My goal wasn't to make MC into a constant struggle for survival. My goal was to rebalance what were essentially useless systems to make them an active part of the game and thus engage the player further.

I'm also still engaged in that process.

Honestly Sar, I'm finding that your posts are more and more indicating that you aren't really seeing the forest through the trees anymore, and are instead focusing on single aspects to the exclusion of others. Try to take a step back and look at the big picture, and also look at it in terms of where we were and where we are, and where we're headed in the future.

If you're playing through the early game over and over again, then of course you will have mastered it, and your present experience is so far removed from that of a first time player that you will have a very hard time evaluating the overall level of difficulty.

My goal isn't to make MC into the ultimate survival game. My goal is to wrap up BTW, leave it in a state that I am comfortable with in calling it "finished" and move onto a new game where I'll be designing everything from the ground up to achieve the kind of experience I desire.

Please try to keep that in mind, and again, consider the big picture.

[FlowerChild]

With regards to the specific points you made:

What I think we're looking at, and it's a problem I'm aware of, is that someone dumped a bunch of domestic animals out into the wild in the MC world without any significant natural predators.

Hunting is thus exceedingly easy as a result. The animals don't put up a fight. They don't try to escape in a meaningful way. You don't have any competition in terms of other animals trying to consume them (or you). They just kinda stand around waiting for the bolt to be injected into their skull.

That's not a simple problem to address. Sure, I could tweak the amount of food dropped, or the hunger values of meat, but at a point that starts to feel increasingly artificial, and is just a band aid on top of the real problem, which is that food is ridiculously plentiful in the MC world.

What is really required IMO is a fundamental reworking of animals in MC in terms of their availability and how they behave in their "wild" state.

That, however, is far beyond what I'm willing to undertake in this late stage in BTW's development. As I said above, my goal is to be comfortable moving on here, confident that I've left BTW in a polished state, not to become further embroiled in long-term development goals.

So then, I implemented HC Hunger as a (relatively) quick way to make food a *relevant* game system, which it never really was. In that regard, I consider HC Hunger to be a definite success, even as I continue to make further tweaks to get it where I want it.

[SterlingRed]

Hey sar if I play with the rules you've posted I've had an abundance of early game food as well and little challenge. But those rules are a very specific and considerably low risk taking strategy to the early game play. I find personally I consume more food and have more fun when I'm not playing it 100% safe. Yeah I get bit in the ass now and then but without taking some risks in Minecraft you may as well be playing vanilla or creative. With the rules you're using of course you'll have an abundance of food. You aren't doing anything that uses it and you're killing everything.

[userzero]

I was about to post this elsewhere but searching the forums for "camp fire" brought up this thread so thought I'd add it here.

The only thing about the early tech tree that bothers me now is the rush to stone. Seems like something like a camp fire for cooking is missing now. I've tried a few runs from the beginning to get the feel for everything and it goes pretty much get enough wood for a pick, get 18 stone (furnace, pick , sword, ax) find animals, shrooms etc till I have a couple stacks, mine, repeat. The rush to stone tools feels out of place with the early tech having an initial focus on hunting. Cooking your first meal in a furnace just feels out of place now. I see where it would be redundant, but it just feels off.

It's taken some getting used to but overall the changes really do make the game a better experience. I actually held off updating during an initial "WTF is he thinking?" but after a few plays, I'm a convert.

[FlowerChild]

I actually held off updating during an initial "WTF is he thinking?" but after a few plays, I'm a convert.

Hehe...I think those kinds of responses have become my favorite with time :)

[DaveYanakov]

One serious potential handicap is a lack of cows means a total lack of armor even when you have enough iron to make a few pieces. It's been a painful experience to have to avoid combat almost entirely for several days and then make the decision to try and save the herd you finally found for later ranching or slaughter them all and hope you can get enough leather to survive an ambush. It just feels like a very poor tradeoff for the amount of damage reduction you get from even a full suit.

[Sarudak]

Is it better? Absolutely it is a thousand times better.

Am I considering food in a serious manner? Yes absolutely.

Perhaps I am too focused on my experience. I do certainly understand that what I want from the game is not really the same as the goal that you have. Although I do hope you kill me several times in RTH as it has been too long since I've tasted the sweet release of death. ;)

In regards to the animal thing that's exactly what I was thinking is the biggest problem. Ironically I was thinking exactly as you that what was needed was to reduce the availability and alter the behavior. Alas I understand totally that you don't want to take that on at this point. Perhaps I'll take a crack at it. I think the AI changes that would make hunting interesting wouldn't have to be that complex.

I'm sorry if I in any way suggested that HC Hunger was not a success because it was very much of one. It was precisely because it is so good that it actually makes me start to care about how ridiculously easy hunting is.

[FlowerChild]

One serious potential handicap is a lack of cows means a total lack of armor even when you have enough iron to make a few pieces. It's been a painful experience to have to avoid combat almost entirely for several days and then make the decision to try and save the herd you finally found for later ranching or slaughter them all and hope you can get enough leather to survive an ambush. It just feels like a very poor tradeoff for the amount of damage reduction you get from even a full suit.

Yeah, I can hear that. I think an increase in the leather drop on cows might actually be in order. The amount you get for slaughtering a single animal seems a little low to me.

I'll think about it to be sure. I'm glad to hear about the tough choice you mentioned above though, as that is part of what I was going for with Hardcore Lactation.

The above also serves as further justification for another feature I have planned but am not willing to share at present ;)

I'm sorry if I in any way suggested that HC Hunger was not a success because it was very much of one. It was precisely because it is so good that it actually makes me start to care about how ridiculously easy hunting is.

It's totally cool man, and I really do appreciate your comments as they are almost always relevant, often times reflect my own, and often times provide me with additional (relevant) food for thought (like the charcoal thing is a perfect example). Just please keep in mind I'm feeling rather overwhelmed at present. I really wasn't expecting HC Hunger to have the kind of mass appeal that it apparently has, and you can see how much traffic has increased here on the forums and over on MCF as a result. I've obviously tapped into something here that people were desperately hungering for but in a lot of cases didn't even realize they wanted. It even seems to have dug some of my enemies out of the woodwork over on Twitter.

Everyone thus has an opinion on it and how it should change at a time when, like I've mentioned, my head is already swimming with variables. Thus, reminding me where your big picture view is when suggesting changes definitely goes a long way in letting me know the work I've already put into this is appreciated and has done good for the game.

Like I said man, just a tad overwhelmed, so I think I'm particularly short on patience these days. I'm trying to focus and the reaction to HC Hunger seems to have thrown a lot of additional distractions into the mix (even down to stuff like the proposed map reset on the official server), right when I probably need them the least :)

Anyways, definitely looking forward to Friday beers this week for my regularly scheduled vacation from serious thought ;)

[Sarudak]

Sorry I didn't know you were feeling that way. HC hunger has created quite the buzz. Don't know why you didn't see it coming though. ;)

Since you're not going to be making changes to the animals can we talk design a bit on that? Otherwise skip the next paragraph. :)

I was thinking just make animals by default flee from you as if you had struck them. The only way they wouldn't flee is if you were carrying something they wanted (wheat, seeds, carrot, tall grass). This would mean that early game hunting with a sword is impractical. You would either need to corner an animal. Dig a pit to trap it. Or get a bow. If I were to get fancy I might make the animals that you bred yourself act like normal animals. It seems like just making that change would give a interesting/challenging hunting experience with a minimal amount of development effort. The only wrinkle I see being milking cows. Maybe feeding them long grass would change them into a domestic version?

[FlowerChild]

I'd prefer not to discuss design on them actually :)

Try to keep something in mind here: part of what I'm doing with these changes is giving people a taste of what is to come with RTH so that one transitions nicely into the other.

Hence, many of my thoughts on the design of such systems are actually *the* design for RTH.

It does get a bit frustrating at times with stuff like this, as obviously people in the community pick up on some of the design trends in my releases for BTW, then naturally want to continue extending those through add-ons or whatever.

However, it leaves me in a rather weird position where I wind up feeling like I am competing with the mod's own community in terms of whether I'll be able to implement my own complete design for things based on my own ideas before they do. It's not entirely pleasant either.

So yeah man, the long and the short of that is that it is not something I'm willing to discuss.

[Sarudak]

I do understand that which is why I gave you the warning. I just figured the idea was so stupid simple that it wouldn't intersect with what you had planned for RTH. As in if I were building up a system from scratch to support hunting and domestic animals it wouldn't look anything like that. ;)

As to competition I think I've expressed this before. I have no spirit of competition in relation to this. I don't care for credit or anything especially seeing as I'm well aware that many of my ideas are a logical extension of yours. I just want myself (and others) to have the best play experience possible. So I'm actually happier if my idea gets made part of btw than being an add-on because more people can enjoy it. I hope you understand there is no competition between us.

[FlowerChild]

Sorry I didn't know you were feeling that way. HC hunger has created quite the buzz. Don't know why you didn't see it coming though. ;)

Just on this point: when I start talking about hootch and ping pong balls in reference to suggestions, you can know that I'm not doing it for fun...

Well, ok, I may be doing it a fun, but that's largely determined by the context :)

As for not seeing it coming: I can see stuff like this coming with "big ticket" items like wind mills, water wheels, pulleys, or whatever, but when it comes to Hardcore features, I think I've come to expect a lot of whining, then a slow burn time where people become accustomed to it and realize that they actually enjoy the game more than before over a long stretch of time.

With this one though, the reaction was fairly immediate and overwhelming. There was a bit of whining (not as much as I honestly would have expected), but for the most part it was more along the lines of suggestions for additional changes and the like, which to me, indicates that people are playing the shit out of it and really loving it.

That's great mind you, and extremely gratifying, but, like I said, just a tad bit overwhelming. Everyone is a critic, but when you've really hit a nerve and done something significant, everyone becomes a vocal one ;)

Also keep in mind that I didn't initially plan HC Hunger to be anywhere near as extensive as it actually is. As I said in my dev diaries while working on it, it kinda went from being a few tweaks to the existing hunger system to make it more relevant, to what became what is effectively a complete rebalance of the whole game.

Hence, I think I anticipated a reaction more akin to what I'd expect for what I was originally planning, rather than what actually happened ;)

[Sarudak]

With this one though, the reaction was fairly immediate and overwhelming. There was a bit of whining (not as much as I honestly would have expected), but for the most part it was more along the lines of suggestions for additional changes and the like, which to me, indicates that people are playing the shit out of it and really loving it.

Yeah. I was actually a bit surprised by the level of positive response also. Especially after the level of whining that accompanied some of the earlier less drastic changes. Perhaps people are becoming accustomed to you balancing the game?

Also keep in mind that I didn't initially plan HC Hunger to be anywhere near as extensive as it actually is. As I said in my dev diaries while working on it, it kinda went from being a few tweaks to the existing hunger system to make it more relevant, to what became what is effectively a complete rebalance of the whole game.

Like pulling on a loose thread right? And pretty soon you crocheted a whole new sweater... ;)

[FlowerChild]

As to competition I think I've expressed this before. I have no spirit of competition in relation to this. I don't care for credit or anything especially seeing as I'm well aware that many of my ideas are a logical extension of yours. I just want myself (and others) to have the best play experience possible. So I'm actually happier if my idea gets made part of btw than being an add-on because more people can enjoy it. I hope you understand there is no competition between us.

Oh, certainly man. I was talking in a very general sense there, not referring to you specifically.

There is however a great deal of satisfaction to unveiling an idea for the first time and blowing people away with it, or what I refer to as "thunder". When you see your own ideas slowly leaking into play then, ahead of having a chance to implement them, I think you can understand why that would be a tad disheartening.

This is also one of the reasons I don't like suggestions in general, sometimes even the good ones. When you're working on something and looking forward to how people will react to it, it really takes a lot of wind out of your sails when somebody posts a suggestion that details precisely what it is you're working on, because it's a logical extrapolation of the concepts you've already put forth.

I remember I ran into precisely that situation on the old turtle forum with Kregoth at one point mentioning random spawn locations while I was working on Hardcore Spawn, and got really frustrated because I had specifically asked for people not to make suggestions about that one while I worked on it. In that case, I was looking forward to people's reactions when I released this thing, as it was a rather fundamental game changer, and it felt like someone had rolled the stripper out on the stage full nude ahead of me being able to even cue the music.

My reaction was likely overly harsh as a result, and I haven't really seen Kregoth around since, so I have some lingering regret there, but hopefully the above provides an idea of the emotional context that inspires me to seemingly randomly flip out at times.

Yeah. I was actually a bit surprised by the level of positive response also. Especially after the level of whining that accompanied some of the earlier less drastic changes. Perhaps people are becoming accustomed to you balancing the game?

Yeah, that's certainly part of it, and again, is something I find really gratifying as people seem to be developing more and more trust in me making these drastic changes with time, and hence the whining has decreased.

Either that, or I've already driven away the bulk of the 14 year olds with my previous changes ;)

Like pulling on a loose thread right? And pretty soon you crocheted a whole new sweater... ;)

Precisely man, and it's still unraveling :)

I'm sure I could keep BTW going and for a year or two more just based on some of the work I'm doing now. But again, that's what RTH is for ;)

[FlowerChild]

This is also one of the reasons I don't like suggestions in general, sometimes even the good ones. When you're working on something and looking forward to how people will react to it, it really takes a lot of wind out of your sails when somebody posts a suggestion that details precisely what it is you're working on, because it's a logical extrapolation of the concepts you've already put forth.

Oh, and even worse: when they then say "yay! he implemented *my* idea!" when you release...yeah, that one has made me punch more than a few puppies over the past couple of years ;)

[Sarudak]

Either that, or I've already driven away the bulk of the 14 year olds with my previous changes ;)

I don't think that's it. My little brother complained a ton about the hardcore bed and info changes but when he read the hardcore hunger and armor changes he said he really wanted to start a new world on the server.

Precisely man, and it's still unraveling :)

I'm sure I could keep BTW going and for a year or two more just based on some of the work I'm doing now. But again, that's what RTH is for ;)

I can't wait! :D

[nmarshall23]

So... I've played the early game with hardcore hunger several times over now and I feel that it's still too easy.

I've felt this, my thought was that Stone Swords are too good. They are cheap to make, and almost as good compared to Iron Swords. But they are vastly superior to wooden Swords.

And that reminds me, I've got to play through once more and pay attention to Iron tools Zombie's drop. Last time I play through, not once did I feel I shouldn't be hording them, for latter recycling. I felt that they had such low durability I wouldn't get must use out of them, so why risk using them?

[FlowerChild]

I think the above actually hits on something.

You know what might be interesting? No stone swords at all.

Wood swords...sure. Stone axes...sure (might boost the damage a bit on them slightly when used in combat). Iron swords...sure.

I think that might go a long way towards smoothing out some of the early game tech progression (at least in terms of combat), and make iron swords feel like a real combat upgrade.

EDIT: Maybe ditch wood axes too.

[JakeZKAM]

I think the above actually hits on something.

You know what might be interesting? No stone swords at all.

Wood swords...sure. Stone axes...sure (might boost the damage a bit on them slightly when used in combat). Iron swords...sure.

I think that might go a long way towards smoothing out some of the early game tech progression (at least in terms of combat), an

It certainly would give a use to the wooden tool set overall. Possibly removing the idea of a set of tools itself and more of progression. Makes you feel more like you're moving from a piece of wood, to a club, to an actual weapon :)

[Sarudak]

I always thought the idea of stone swords was weird. Heck all the stone tools are weird except for axes. See I knew this would happen. You say you're not going to touch the wood to stone problem and yet here we are. It's like pulling at a loose thread. ;)

[PatriotBob]

I think the above actually hits on something.

You know what might be interesting? No stone swords at all.

Wood swords...sure. Stone axes...sure (might boost the damage a bit on them slightly when used in combat). Iron swords...sure.

I think that might go a long way towards smoothing out some of the early game tech progression (at least in terms of combat), and make iron swords feel like a real combat upgrade.

EDIT: Maybe ditch wood axes too.

That change actually could be a bit of fun... most of the time I find early I make a stone sword or two and forget about it while I wonder. This would make maintaining a weapon more of an active decision. If you did find that the vacuum created by stone sword removal needed filling, it might be a good spot for obsidian instead.

Remove wood axes, stone swords... half a step from removing wood pickaxes and making us do our initial stone collection with creepers... :)

[FlowerChild]

I always thought the idea of stone swords was weird. Heck all the stone tools are weird except for axes. See I knew this would happen. You say you're not going to touch the wood to stone problem and yet here we are. It's like pulling at a loose thread. ;)

Grrrrrr :)

That change actually could be a bit of fun... most of the time I find early I make a stone sword or two and forget about it while I wonder. This would make maintaining a weapon more of an active decision. If you did find that the vacuum created by stone sword removal needed filling, it might be a good spot for obsidian instead.

Wait...did you just...seriously...oh man, it can't possible be...

Did you just suggest I make an obsidian tool mod? :)