Living on a doughnut

[XantyZon]

Thanks to the new Anvil file format, my fiend could make her own sever world with the cold biomes to the north and south, also the tropical biome to the center of the map. This got me to thinking that it would be nice if Minecraft had this option for a map generation, but the way Mojang has it I don't see this ever happening. So I started thinking about voxel games in general and what my friend wanted for her map. First (as above) logical distribution of biomes. Second she wanted to have a limit to the world size.
Thinking about this second condition made me start thinking about doughnut worlds. If you have ever play Asteroids then you how the top screen is linked to the bottom and the sides are liked as well. I believe that some early versions Civilization had this a well; thus creating a doughnut world. If this was applied to voxel games (north to south - east to west) then you could have a set world size without an edge.
Now having this in my head I started thinking of how a doughnut world could have some interesting application. One of the things that it could have (but I don't know how practical in a coding sense) is the angle of sun becomes grater the further you get from the center "equator" of the world. The sun keeps getting lower until it disappears below the horizon. Once you pass the north/ south border the sun starts coming up the other side. Crafting a sextant could help the player determine their latitude.

[ExpHP]

Well, assuming the sun is at the equator, yes. Though if it was, the inside would probably be in a perpetual winter, and the outside in a perpetual summer.

Personally, though, I'd be a bit more concerned about the giant imposing tube of land thousands of miles overhead.

[XantyZon]

Personally, though, I'd be a bit more concerned about the giant imposing tube of land thousands of miles overhead.

The sky is separate from ground generation. The trick is to make you feel like you're on a globe when you are really on a doughnut.

[emptychild]

What benefit does the doughnut shape offer over an actually spherical world? Is it easier to implement a doughnut? It would seem to me if you wanted a world where the size was limited you'd just design it where east and west eventually linked but that the north and south poles wouldn't link like they do in an asteroid type game. I mean if you want to make it more realistic is there a reason from a design or programming standpoint to not just make the world shape be realistic?

[XantyZon]

What benefit does the doughnut shape offer over an actually spherical world? Is it easier to implement a doughnut? It would seem to me if you wanted a world where the size was limited you'd just design it where east and west eventually linked but that the north and south poles wouldn't link like they do in an asteroid type game. I mean if you want to make it more realistic is there a reason from a design or programming standpoint to not just make the world shape be realistic?

A voxel game run on parallel lines, so if you didn't link the north/south but still wanted to be a limited size then you would run into a solid border. I'm sure some one could come up with a globe shape but for simplicity a doughnut is easier. As for realism, you can only take that so far before it stops being fun.

[Zhil]

Here's my list of what I consider, so far, to be viable ways of making a map in games with grids made of straight edges (no world curvature).

1) Map boundaries. Most games are like this. You create a map and delineate it by water, mountains, invisible walls, etc.

2) Infinite map. Like vanilla Minecraft, this fixes the problem of borders of course.

3) Infinite pipe. One axis of the map is infinite, one axis is limited and connects at the edges. Running far enough south, you end up north. This is the easiest model that allows for north/south climate zones.

4) Infinite map, limited variation zone. Basically, once you go far enough south or north, the landscape turns barren. The north/south axis is infinite, but you experience it as limited. TerraFirmaCraft does this.

5) Torus/Donut. You make two axis finite and connect them at the edges. Run far enough north, you end up south; run far enough east, you end up west.

3) Cube. It's a bit hard to imagine, but the map would basically be shaped like a cross and the edges would connect like when folding it up like a square.

All map types that connect edges need to be sufficiently large of course, to avoid running one way and seeing the same building over and over. Especially the cube world could give some really funky results. For real world climates, torus and pipe maps need to make sure that the map generates two moderate bands, with two polar bands in-between. Running far enough south brings you north, so you want two pole regions. Running to the north pole doesn't drop you off at the south pole on a sphere, so you need to mimic that.

I should make images. I wonder how hard it would be to bootstrap Minecraft, so we could test all of these. I'd love the see the funky weirdness when you generate small-ish cubes. I'm sure you'll get MC Escher's wet dream.

[emptychild]

Xanty thanks for the response. I was sincerely asking. Well explained.

[XantyZon]

Xanty thanks for the response. I was sincerely asking. Well explained.

My pleasure. You have always seemed sincere in your posts and it's the least I could do for a fellow Dr. Who fan.

[wizardglick]

Ringworld?

[XantyZon]

Ringworld?

I do like how you think. The concept of a ring world has always been attractive to me and and I have thought about it a lot, but this would be only a good solution if you wanted a continuous day on the sun side and night on the star side but my friend wants a day night cycle.
I would love to see a game based on a world that stretches around a sun. The lore behind such a world could be fascinating.

[Azdoine]

The ramifications of a ring/doughnut world in minecraft are never going to matter to most players. The regular minecraft world is 8 times the size of our own planet, and a full-scale Niven ringworld would be three million times the size of earth. Even with nether travel and optimal terrain, that's still a long way to go.

However, things would become very interesting if one were also to add the same kind of environmental factors you find in the real world, such as 'poles', equators, navigable stars, etc, latitude based worldgen, etc. Of course, just joining the edges of the minecraft world wouldn't do any of the above.

[XantyZon]

The ramifications of a ring/doughnut world in minecraft are never going to matter to most players. The regular minecraft world is 8 times the size of our own planet, and a full-scale Niven ringworld would be three million times the size of earth. Even with nether travel and optimal terrain, that's still a long way to go.

However, things would become very interesting if one were also to add the same kind of environmental factors you find in the real world, such as 'poles', equators, navigable stars, etc, latitude based worldgen, etc. Of course, just joining the edges of the minecraft world wouldn't do any of the above.

I would have to agree with you.

What got me thinking about linking the edges of the MC world is servers and people that wanted to limit the world size. I always hated worlds or games that crated an invisible wall that you could not pass and were you want to go was just beyond that. Linking the edges at a set distance could give you control of world size at the same time the feel of freedom of movement.

Once you have a world with a set size adding environmental factors become a little easier. A latitude based worldgen would be a matter of setting your equator at the zero east/west coordinate. Then have the algorithm distribute the biomes between those points. Having a more dynamic sky box could make us feel like we have a more useable sky.

My image of a ring world did not start with a Niven ringworld but thinking about a Dyson sphere. When I was young, I concluded that the sphere was not practical because it couldn't create a magnetic field to protect from the suns radiation, so a ring would be the better choice. It was only later that I ran into the Niven Ringworld. Some of the deference's are that I wouldn't want any technology to be visible or needed to maintain it. Next would be size. To keep the world from overheating you would have to build it past the orbit of mars if the star was the same size as our sun. I would have it be roughly 130,000 miles wide from north to south. This gives you more than seven billion times the surface aria of earth on the sun side. The gravity should be grate enough to hold atmosphere in and the north and south should curve around smoothly. There should be a parabolic curve to the inside of the ring. If you didn't want the star-side to freeze over you could put six stars with about eleven or twelve percent of a solar mass at sixty degrees from each other in orbit around the parent star . Also the energy collected by the magnetic field be converted to drive tectonic movements. It's still a work in progress but I enjoy dreaming of it. If did see it represented in a game, I would want it to be something more then Minecraft. And yes, it would be a very long way to go.

[0player]

3) Cube. It's a bit hard to imagine, but the map would basically be shaped like a cross and the edges would connect like when folding it up like a square.

Heh, it's not only hard to imagine, it took me 10 minutes to get straight what the observer standing on such a map will see (assuming no walls). It gets really weird because cube map has points that is not plane-like (full circle is 270, not 360) and, because of that, slightest change of ray direction causes dramatic changer in ray destination.
Now I want to see a game about it. I bet it would be crazier than Antichamber.

[Zhil]

Heh, it's not only hard to imagine, it took me 10 minutes to get straight what the observer standing on such a map will see (assuming no walls). It gets really weird because cube map has points that is not plane-like (full circle is 270, not 360) and, because of that, slightest change of ray direction causes dramatic changer in ray destination.
Now I want to see a game about it. I bet it would be crazier than Antichamber.

Yeah, I've thought a lot about it in the past. I figure it'd be really crazy at the 8 corner points.

[TheGatesofLogic]

Theoretically It IS possible to make a ring world or Torus by altering a bit of how the game works but the problem you'll run into is where the 'ends' connect, unless you made major changes to the whole code of minecraft there would be one line(or 2 for a torus) where the biomes on either side are completely different and irrelevant of each other... just a thought

[XantyZon]

Theoretically It IS possible to make a ring world or Torus by altering a bit of how the game works but the problem you'll run into is where the 'ends' connect, unless you made major changes to the whole code of minecraft there would be one line(or 2 for a torus) where the biomes on either side are completely different and irrelevant of each other... just a thought

You're absolutely right. With the north/south you could cheep out and have them connect with an ice plain but the east/west boundary would have to have a little more complex algorithm to make the biomes mesh.

[Zhil]

Theoretically It IS possible to make a ring world or Torus by altering a bit of how the game works but the problem you'll run into is where the 'ends' connect, unless you made major changes to the whole code of minecraft there would be one line(or 2 for a torus) where the biomes on either side are completely different and irrelevant of each other... just a thought

I think we were all under the assumption that if you were to make that change, completely rewriting world gen would be part of it of course. You can't have one without the other.

Besides, making the map a torus and not using it to make climate zones defeats large part of the purpose.

[Folrig]

I would think the ring would be the easiest to fake. Have arctic to the north an south ending in empty space, and east and west loop back to eachother. Heck make the void to the north and south infinite that can be built into just no world generation.

The fun part would be the sky. Stationary sun that waxes and wanes. Instead of a moon there would be a broken arc across the night sky. This could be cool.

[TheGatesofLogic]

The fun part would be the sky. Stationary sun that waxes and wanes. Instead of a moon there would be a broken arc across the night sky. This could be cool.

. ...I hope you realize that the ring isnt actually visible, and that it's just a spatial abstraction...

The ramifications of a ring/doughnut world in minecraft are never going to matter to most players. The regular minecraft world is 8 times the size of our own planet, and a full-scale Niven ringworld would be three million times the size of earth. Even with nether travel and optimal terrain, that's still a long way to go.

However, things would become very interesting if one were also to add the same kind of environmental factors you find in the real world, such as 'poles', equators, navigable stars, etc, latitude based worldgen, etc. Of course, just joining the edges of the minecraft world wouldn't do any of the above.

Once you have a world with a set size adding environmental factors become a
My image of a ring world did not start with a Niven ringworld but thinking about a Dyson sphere. When I was young, I concluded that the sphere was not practical because it couldn't create a magnetic field to protect from the suns radiation, so a ring would be the better choice. It was only later that I ran into the Niven Ringworld. Some of the deference's are that I wouldn't want any technology to be visible or needed to maintain it. Next would be size. To keep the world from overheating you would have to build it past the orbit of mars if the star was the same size as our sun. I would have it be roughly 130,000 miles wide from north to south. This gives you more than seven billion times the surface aria of earth on the sun side. The gravity should be grate enough to hold atmosphere in and the north and south should curve around smoothly. There should be a parabolic curve to the inside of the ring. If you didn't want the star-side to freeze over you could put six stars with about eleven or twelve percent of a solar mass at sixty degrees from each other in orbit around the parent star . Also the energy collected by the magnetic field be converted to drive tectonic movements. It's still a work in progress but I enjoy dreaming of it. If did see it represented in a game, I would want it to be something more then Minecraft. And yes, it would be a very long way to go.

.

Erm... Do you even understand the physics behind this? A dyson sphere or ringworld with Sufficient mass for gravitational acceleration would not only immediately contract into a black hole, but if it didn't it would rip apart your body from inequal tangential accelerations.

[Folrig]

Well, yeah!

If I'm gonna dream of a minecraft ring world i'm gonna go all the way. We can't just leave the old sun, moon and stars up there. I imagine if on a ring world I would see part of ring in the sky.

Ha! You don't actually think I believe there is a moon orbiting my minecraft world do you? ...um...which I don't.

[XantyZon]

Erm... Do you even understand the physics behind this? A dyson sphere or ringworld with Sufficient mass for gravitational acceleration would not only immediately contract into a black hole, but if it didn't it would rip apart your body from inequal tangential accelerations.

Actually I do understand the physics behind this. There are asteroids that do have one G pull at it's surface. The gravitational pull of an object is the mass of an object and your distance from the center. When you are standing on the ring to calculate the pull of gravity, it would be half the distance from the side you are on to the other side then factor in the mass. (yes the full equation would be a bit more complex than that but for simplicity that is that you are going get.) The problem would come in when you are trying to make a ring like this stable and not crumble under its own weight. If you chose to make it's rotation fast enough to keep from collapsing then you run the risk that it will fly apart from centrifugal forces. So to make this work you have to think out side the box, or outside the universe.

(Ok now for the not so fun part of too much reality, to set up an understanding of what I'm talking about.) If you accept that electrons are four dimensional and that is why they appear to be a wave and a particle. This would mean that the difference in particles and forces are a dimensional one. Now, our universe is based upon eight dimensions of matter ( yes I know that seams to fly in the face of super string and brane theory, but when you factor in the 3 dimensions of time then you have all 11 dimensions for brane theory, and since 2 of the dimensions of time are folded and appear to be one, [ this causes the illusion of linear time] then this gives you the appearance of ten dimensions for super string theory.) You can separate it into two major classes of matter, first is folded matter (which is all the observable particles and forces that we encounter and (what I call) base matter. the difference between the two is very easy to understand. Base matter does not have any folded dimensions of matter but the orientation of the dimensions would appear to be inward from our perspective and the dimensions of time are outward orientated. Folded matter has at least two of it's dimensions of matter folded and the time dimensions are orientated inward and matter outward. These two particles repel each other which gives us a component of gravity and what is being called dark energy. (yes, what is causing galaxies to accelerate away from one another is the same thing that keeps you stuck to the earth) If you add another dimension of matter then you will get a reality who's physics are similar to ours. Now when you start getting into ten and eleven dimensional realities then its Physics begin to change drastically. While I can not accurately predict how material from these realities would react, this gives us reasonable starting point for the "what if part" (oh and if it feels like I left a little bit out of the explanation above, I did. about three journals full).

So If we speculate that there is a race that can use other dimensional material to fashion a spine for the ring that is strong enough to withstand the force required to keep the ring from collapsing on itself and at the same time being able to form a magnetic field that captures the suns harmful radiation and convert it to heat with out losing structural integrity. Also it would have to be able to survive impacts of bodies as large as mars. it would be quite difficult to achieve but that is why I said the lore of such a race could be fascinating.

[Zhil]

Actually I do understand the physics behind this.

If you chose to make it's rotation fast enough to keep from collapsing then you run the risk that it will fly apart from centrifugal forces.

*facepalm*

[TheGatesofLogic]

...centrifugal forces...

*double-facepalm. Please explain to me what the hell centrifugal forces have to do with a fucking RING! Contrary to the second most popular belief I find people have about these forces, they actually do exist, but they are most definitely not active on a spinning ring...

Also, using some calculus I discovered it is impossible to make the gravity work like that on a ring. on a planet it works fine since the overall effect of the gravitational forces of a sphere equal that of a point with equal mass a radius away, but on a ring the effect would be quite different. On a ring a gravitational force that one feels would rely on a ring of exponentially increasing size in order to reach equilibrium between all forces save a net force of 1 G directly down(or out depending on the point of view you choose) in essence the radius approaches infinity too fast for gravitational acceleration to be even close to reasonable in terms of the size of the ring.

Did you mean to use said magnetic field to hold the ring in place around the star? You didn't mention it so I thought I'd ask. Also the magnetic field has more than one benefit to it, a magnetic grit around the ring that repels solar particles, if made strong enough, could divert the course of very massive bodies if they have a magnetic field (which almost all of them should)

I'm gonna take a look at the code for world coordinates and see what might work, I really want to live on a torus right now. :)

[XantyZon]

*facepalm*

Centrifugal force wile not a true force, it what is used to describe the inertia of an object following a curved path. The centripetal force is the force that is keeping an object traveling in a curved path.

[Sarudak]

A rotating ring assuming one lives on the inside of the ring can simulate gravity irregardless of it's mass. There is no way for an observer to determine the difference between gravity and acceleration which is one of the principles of relativity. As to whether any material could be created that could withstand such forces the answer is certainly not right now and possibly not ever.