What is BWF?

[FlowerChild]

Can we stop with the off-topic in this thread please?

I'll be deleting further off-topic posts (and the ones that were previously above this one) before this gets out of control.

[Azradun]

He doesn't seem like a bad guy, nor does he seem to be doing this with bad intentions. But he is still doing it and not keeping it very private at all.

He made a Twitter account named BetterWithForge. He says he distributes the mod to some people who PM him.

So he is public about his work and distributes it. This makes him a bad guy, especially in light that the modder (FC) in no uncertain terms told him to stop.

He can't eat the cake (make his work public and distribute) and have it (deny his wrongdoing) at the same time.

Those are plain facts visible even to simple people such as myself.

[destineternel]

This ties into BWF, I had a little discussion with slowpoke during the week of the initial BWF storm. I basically asked him why a public person like himself (aka the public figure of FTB/Creator) constantly spreads ill will about FC on his livestreams which in turn fuels the fire in forge supporters. He told me he can't control forge folk and forge supporters but he can control FTB folk. Which in turn I told him I heard him publicly trash FC after FC shut him down on the BTW ftb map discussion in irc one day.

So after out little conversation I got the feeling slowpoke was really going to avoid airing his dirty laundry on his livestreams...this was back on dec 17/2012. well now...this segment from his livestream yesterday is a perfect example of what I was trying to tell him back on dec 17.

http://www.twitch.tv/slowpoke101/b/353068757 @ 3hr56min mark (there was about 1500 people watching this stream)

slowpoke and another forge mod developer are having a little discussion and FC's name gets mentioned...then it gets interesting as they talk about FC, risugami, lex and cpw. It's about a 15-20 minute segment at the mark. Slowpoke doesn't support BWF, I honestly think otherwise.

[Cybermario]

have not been around in the forums for a long time, but i appreciate the work and effort you put in this mod and i regret to hear this BS is happening. I was surprised to see how they assimilated (borg style) ML on forge and how are they trying to do this to you.

A question if im allowed to FC? when (and if) Mojang release the so called mod API what will be the future of BTW and RTH?

[FlowerChild]

A question if im allowed to FC? when (and if) Mojang release the so called mod API what will be the future of BTW and RTH?

Again, let's not drag this off-topic please.

I'd be happy to answer such a question elsewhere, but not in this thread.

[Tartin]

slowpoke and another forge mod developer are having a little discussion and FC's name gets mentioned...then it gets interesting as they talk about FC, risugami, lex and cpw. It's about a 15-20 minute segment at the mark. Slowpoke doesn't support BWF, I honestly think otherwise.

Um I don't see how the that video makes him in support of BWF he obviously dislike certain people and was talking about Risugami's permission silliness (thus part of the catalyst for FML but that's beside the point). Just because a person has a dim view (probably from here-say and not actual knowledge) of another doesn't mean he is all out against him. One thing you gotta remember about live streams its just people dicking around like a normal conversation so they can and will end up saying stupid things.

Also the way I think of BWF it is not a rally point for everyone who dislikes Flowerchild because it is stupidly immoral and a horrible thing to do. So anyone with common sense would stay clear of it especially a person like slowpoke who is making a modpack based proper permissions and all that goodness.

[FlowerChild]

Um I don't see how the that video makes him in support of BWF he obviously dislike certain people and was talking about Risugami's permission silliness (thus part of the catalyst for FML but that's beside the point). Just because a person has a dim view (probably from here-say and not actual knowledge) of another doesn't mean he is all out against him. One thing you gotta remember about live streams its just people dicking around like a normal conversation so they can and will end up saying stupid things.

Also the way I think of BWF it is not a rally point for everyone who dislikes Flowerchild because it is stupidly immoral and a horrible thing to do. So anyone with common sense would stay clear of it especially a person like slowpoke who is making a modpack based proper permissions and all that goodness.

I think you need to check your facts. Slowpoke has publicly defended BWF on several occasions, saying that I "deserved it" for past actions against Eloraam (never describing what those actually were mind you), and even going so far as acting as Lex's mouth-piece in IRC in defending his stance towards BWF. There's no doubt that he supports it, and my personal opinion on it is that he's likely quite intimately connected to those involved with it.

He doesn't want to *appear* to support it given his FTB mod-pack is supposed to respect modders permissions or what have you, and given his support of BWF obviously contradicts that, making him look very bad in the process.

He's a perfectly likeable guy in a social context, but when it comes down to it, he's a pure politician and hypocrite (I've taken to referring to him as "Goebbels" in conversations with friends).

I haven't watched the above video since I'm pretty sick of listening to his BS in general and I'm always left with the lingering feeling that I need to take a shower every time I interact with him, but I strongly suspect he's just taken to dissing me without specific reference to BWF so that he can continue to promote it through doing so, without showing obvious support for it and thus making his hypocrisy not quite as evident.

[CrafterOfMines57]

I strongly suspect he's just taken to dissing me without specific reference to BWF

For not watching the video, that guess is pretty damn good.

[Azradun]

The BetterWithForge on twitter seem to be either a troll, or not a good/innocent guy people portrait him as (if he's the one who made BWF, which I begin to doubt).

Some quotes:

"@Ivyyn Resistance? Forge is just a very useful API, anyone who does not use it is doing things very difficult. "

"@Ivyyn Actually for every 1 message I get such as yours, I easily get 20 others that say they look forward to Forge compatibility. "

"@Ivyyn I am not programming for his community, I am programming for my server. "

"@Ivyyn He is programming for the wrong reasons, should always program for oneself, not others, else your code will not be yours. " (on FC)

"@Rafe2013 He already hurt people, many many times in the past based on what I have heard recently. I shall stay with my logic. " (on FC again)

"@Ivyyn Not from what I have heard. Lately I have heard that he is hostile, agressive, insulting, actually promotes his 'mob' to attack. " (again)

"@Rafe2013 Respectable programmers do not allow their emotions to interfere with code. I know not about respectable designers, I am not one. "

Does it look to people that this man is good-willed or misguided? :P

I think it's either a trolling account meant to antagonize the BTW community or if he's really the "maker" of BWF, he's beyond redemption. To put it very mildly.

[FlowerChild]

Yeah, he's all over the place in his reasoning and is routinely contradicting himself now.

Personally, I think that's just symptomatic of it being an act. It's rather difficult to maintain logical consistency when you don't believe what you're saying.

He doesn't put faith in rumors, supposedly only dealing in facts...except when they're about me.

He doesn't believe personal reasons should be affecting what you're doing, except seems to have rather strong personal opinions about me which he's now using as justification.

He says he doesn't follow what's going on in the MC community, yet seems remarkably informed of it and is repeatedly letting that slip.

He tried maintaining the good guy act at the start going on about respecting my work yadda yadda, now the whole sham is just falling apart. I'll just stick with my original assessment that this is just more BS.

[Tartin]

I haven't watched the above video since I'm pretty sick of listening to his BS in general and I'm always left with the lingering feeling that I need to take a shower every time I interact with him, but I strongly suspect he's just taken to dissing me without specific reference to BWF so that he can continue to promote it through doing so, without showing obvious support for it and thus making his hypocrisy not quite as evident.

Well as for all the facts I am kinda out of date (as trying to keep unjumble the truth from the fiction was getting might confusing) with all the goings on. But as far as I can recall he never publicly supported BWF tho has supported lex (tho I dont really understand lex's whole connection other then being the head of forge and him being a prick).

But from the video you were mentioned once it and it was a conversation on who had the best voice in the Minecraft Community then slowpoke said his personal dislike for you, Kakermix and Risu. Then the rest was mostly a riff on Risugami and his werid policy on permissions being essentially depending on the mood he is in (I.E. Slow asked for permission for modloader to go into FTB then Risu said you had permissions till you asked then he revoked them; then a few days later another modpack asked and Risu gave permission).

[FlowerChild]

But from the video you were mentioned once it and it was a conversation on who had the best voice in the Minecraft Community then slowpoke said his personal dislike for you, Kakermix and Risu. Then the rest was mostly a riff on Risugami and his werid policy on permissions being essentially depending on the mood he is in (I.E. Slow asked for permission for modloader to go into FTB then Risu said you had permissions till you asked then he revoked them; then a few days later another modpack asked and Risu gave permission).

Yeah, SlowPoke doesn't seem to realize that him ragging on Risu also makes him look rather bad.

That in combination with his support of BWF amounts to him saying "yes, we ask modders for permission...they just aren't allowed to say no", which obviously just makes a shitload of sense.

It's Risu's mod. He can give permission to whom he likes for whatever reason he likes. FTB and Technic are essentially the same, FTB just has a better spokesperson, and Technic is less hypocritical about it.

[Azradun]

That in combination with his support of BWF amounts to him saying "yes, we ask modders for permission...they just aren't allowed to say no", which obviously just makes a shitload of sense.

Yes, it amounts precisely to that. Everything is fine and dandy until you're an obstacle on the way of the Forge. And then, suddenly you're reviled and a burden on the community.

It's even worse than Technic, because they're currently doing more damage. They masquerade as men in rights. If FTB gets its way and retains its "moral high ground" and public face, the non-Forge modding is doomed. What is to stop another ModderMockup from taking over another project in the future?

[Gears]

Okay, from his twitter it sounds like he's actually considering releasing it soon, with or without your permission. Well, assuming it IS actually him, and not a troll account...

Wonder if I should release it, it is no extra work on my part. Thoughts? And an illogical response will be a vote in the other way.

[FlowerChild]

Wonder if I should release it, it is no extra work on my part. Thoughts? And an illogical response will be a vote in the other way.

Well, I personally never had any doubt it would be released, so no surprises there.

The guy is self-justifying scum. There's really no reason to expect that to change or for him to behave differently, whatever airs he may have wanted to put on about being a "good guy".

Asking public opinion on it is just another layer on top of that. Nothing new, and we all know what the response is going to be like given the "gimme gimme" state of the MC community. It's just another thing to point at in trying to justify his actions in that he can site "popular demand" or some other noble sounding bullshit.

[Azradun]

Well, assuming it IS actually him, and not a troll account...

I'm 99% certain it's a troll. All the attacks on BTW community, plus the blatant threat and blackmail against FC ("I'm planning on releasing").

But there's an other side to this. If this is not the real 'BWF', the real 'BWF' should step up and make an 'official' dementi. Or Slowpoke or Lex, as previously CONNECTED to promoting the mod in public. The fact they don't speaks volumes. After all, someone is making the 'maker' of BWF look very bad in public (on Twitter for God's sake!).

Thus of course assuming the mysterious, unknown, anonymous, fearing for his life (heh) BWF was legit in the first place. And not someone fabricated to cover up other people, well known and on the top :)

It's all a dirty, dirty matter, reminding me the worst politician's schemes. Those who devised it and those who perpetrate it should be ashamed of themselves.

[FlowerChild]

The confusion is to their benefit man, as it makes it very difficult to form any kind of coherent opposition to what they're doing.

Again...it really is very similar to the early days of Technic. Who's to blame? Kanker for creating it? Yogscast for promoting it?

Everybody points fingers elsewhere, making excuses all the while, so nobody really knows who to fault for what's happening, any attempts to hold someone responsible are met with denials, and it just keeps going.

Again, which is one of the reasons why I've focused on Lex and his involvement from the start of this. He's the one in the position of power here, thus I hold him responsible for it...and he is.

[Pucc]

Just a hunch but the guy writes in a sort of smuggish, I'm a dick kind of way and the only other person who i've seen write or talk in this kind of way is Lex. The guy continues to state he's a programmer not a designer which I'm sure Lex has stated numerous times in the past also but as this is just a hunch its probably better to wait and see who this person is rather than trawling through posts to cross compare.

I do also get the feeling that, again if this is Lex, that perhaps no more work on BWF has been done since that initial live stream of it and that Lex is just milking everything he can out of it to anger and piss off FC. What I mean is has there been any solid evidence that this mod is being worked on or is it all just a great heap of bullshit being spouted from numerous false websites/feeds that we have to go off as evidence of its progress?

[FlowerChild]

Just a hunch but the guy writes in a sort of smuggish, I'm a dick kind of way and the only other person who i've seen write or talk in this kind of way is Lex.

Honestly, I've had a pretty good idea of who is coding this thing from the start man, I just refrain from posting anything on that without absolute proof, and because as I've maintained, Lex is the real issue here.

To my knowledge, Lex isn't the one coding it directly (he's very likely aiding in its development though). However, the person in question is indeed close to him and high up in the Forge community, and yes, they're the same kind of smug bastard that Lex is.

If I do manage to get my hands on some clear evidence of who it is though, you can expect this shit storm to escalate to much greater levels, as if it is the person I think it is, it paints a very telling picture of what's going on with the Forge and would make it impossible to argue against Lex's association.

[Thieme]

Can't you see such a thing by looking at it's code? Because most of the time people can see if you have coded something because of the layout and neatness etc. so everyone should have their code quirks?
But you are right in that it doesn't matter to much and to focus on Lex.

[FlowerChild]

Can't you see such a thing by looking at it's code? Because most of the time people can see if you have coded something because of the layout and neatness etc. so everyone should have their code quirks?

Nah man, it's never that obvious. I don't think running a forensics operation on the code base for BWF, especially after it's gone through obfuscation and deobfuscation, is really within my abilities, and certainly wouldn't act as any kind of tangible proof regardless :)

[Rianaru]

From what little I know of coding, it would be like trying to tell what author wrote a book by looking at the writing style. Sure, it might give you a general idea(and maybe a very specific one), but the Forge crowd would most likely seize any possibility of FC being wrong as proof that he actually is wrong. Yay fallacies *facepalm*

[FlowerChild]

From what little I know of coding, it would be like trying to tell what author wrote a book by looking at the writing style. Sure, it might give you a general idea(and maybe a very specific one), but the Forge crowd would most likely seize any possibility of FC being wrong as proof that he actually is wrong. Yay fallacies *facepalm*

Exactly, hence why I don't share my personal opinions on who is behind this without actual proof.

The person I have in mind is a complete and total dick anyways, but I also don't want a potentially innocent individual to get harassed over this, which is why I ask people to keep speculation about it to themselves as well.

[JanglerNPL]

Why do you feel it's not OK to post your speculations about who's behind BWF, but do feel it's OK to post your speculations as to whether LexManos is aiding with the development? Or are they more than speculations? Mattabase's stream was almost a month ago ... do you have any evidence that LexManos has done anything _at all_ involving BWF after that?

[FlowerChild]

Why do you feel it's not OK to post your speculations about who's behind BWF, but do feel it's OK to post your speculations as to whether LexManos is aiding with the development? Or are they more than speculations? Mattabase's stream was almost a month ago ... do you have any evidence that LexManos has done anything _at all_ involving BWF after that?

A month or go or not, seven hours of video of Lex ranting like a loon about me, expressing intimate knowledge of the inner workings of both the BTW and BWF code, and repeatedly justifying its existence isn't enough?

Give me a break man. The guy is fucking scum, and he has a community backing him at least as large (and probably far larger) than the BTW one. Me worrying about him being a potential "victim" in this would be ridiculous.