What is BWF?

[Chomamonka]

Haha, I love this community. The visual I get is of Lex and possy comming over here trying to shamlessly take candy from a baby only to find out it was a pack of bloodthisty wolves. :) Hopefully this crap will get resolved soon and we can all go back to playing BTW in peace. Long live BTW!

[Talrea]

funnier still would be BTW hardcore enderman... anoy one and a whole lot turn up, even ones you never knew were there

[FlowerChild]

I think that Gil is lying or telling us half-truth,

Honestly, I think we should leave Gil out of this as much as possible.

Am I upset that I largely wasted a day yesterday getting the run around based on the information he was feeding me, and that it caused a lot of additional confusion within the community about the issues at hand? Sure.

Do I blame him personally for that? No.

Perhaps he should have gone further in verifying his sources before bringing this whole thing to me, and I think he exaggerated his own involvement with BWF to begin with, but I honestly do not get the impression it was done with malice, and I think he probably feels most conned by the whole thing himself. My impression is that he was basically used to disrupt us.

So I'd ask people to not persecute him personally for whatever small role he did play in this. It's largely irrelevant. As I've maintained from the beginning of this whole scenario, this has always really been about the head of the Forge, LexManos, and the role he's played in promoting and aiding in the development of this thing.

And like I said yesterday, through this process Lex's involvement has become increasingly transparent, so at worst, the situation largely remains the same as it was before yesterday despite whatever small setback the above represented.

[FlowerChild]

We love you man. You're mature, clever enough (even if you copy paste code sometimes ;) ), strong willed, respected and ALSO being wronged. Even my wife who thinks that all of this minecraft stuff is stupid, agrees that blatantly ripping someones hard work, even if you did it for free, is above all morally wrong.

Just wanted to address the copy/paste thing above as it's been running around in the back of my head for a little while now, and I think that during this current lull in the action would be a good time to address a lot of Lex's comments about the quality of my code that he made during that video.

Primarily, I want to say that my copy/pasting is largely due to experience, and this is why:

The first time I implement functionality of a particular kind, I almost inevitably special case it instead of writing a general purpose solution, UNLESS it's with the clear knowledge that I'll be doing something similar repeatedly in the future. Why is that? Because writing general purpose code inevitably takes more time, AND because the first time you do something is actually when you understand the problem the least and will likely discover "gotchas" along the way. Thus, it's actually the point at which you are least capable of designing a general purpose approach in a solid manner that will serve your purposes down the road.

The second time I implement a kind of functionality, I look at what I've already done, and ask myself once again "how likely is it I'll be needing something like this again in the future, and is it quicker for me to simply copy/paste the original code with slight modifications to get the job done?". If it's unlikely that I'll use it again, and it is indeed quicker for me to copy/paste, then OF COURSE I do it, because doing otherwise would be pure programming wankery, and ultimately a waste of time.

The third time is when I really start to take a close look at the problem and begin seriously considering a general purpose approach. And even then, I rarely will go back and convert my old code to the new system unless there is a *practical* reason to do so (like decreased maintenance cost), because again, if I'm spending time converting said code when it's functioning perfectly well as is, then I am once again engaged in programming wankery and just wasting time.

In other words, I have the experience to know when something calls for the time required to develop a general purpose solution, and when writing one would only amount to the ego involved in wanting to be able to point to my code and say "ain't it purty?", when really, that impacts no one but myself.

Which brings up another point: I am not coding in a team environment. My code within BTW is written for my own use, and only for my own use. So then, why would I adopt programming practices for this project that are designed to facilitate working within a team? Believe me, I'm well aware of such practices having acted as a lead programmer on multiple commercial games and having written extensive professional documentation on coding practices for teams. However, again, I'm also experienced enough to know when NOT to use them when I'm coding in a context where they would only serve to slow me down. To do so would be the equivalent of religiously making sure to use your signal lights when you're driving on a deserted country road: there's just no point to it, other than to be able to say "I am driving 'properly'" for reasons related to ego.

So, given the above, I think you can understand why I found Lex's rampant criticism of my code laughable at best. He's attempting to use my code for a purpose for which it was never intended (copying by a third party and adapting it to the Forge), and then going on about how my code is shit, when it's not the code itself that's the problem, but his attempted abuse of it. It's the equivalent to bitching about the engineering of your station wagon when you're attempting to drive it on a Nascar oval. It just completely misses the point.

Frankly, his comments on the matter just made him stand out to me as someone whose experience with coding is mainly restricted to the academic, and thus focusing on the 'ideal' (and thus more time consuming) approach to solving a programming problem. That's not too bad when you're working on an API, because inevitably you are designing code to be used by many other programmers, which is exactly what the academically "ideal" solution usually focuses on, but if you apply that same logic to code written by a single programmer strictly for his own use: well then, you're just being silly and only showing off your own lack of experience in real world programming.

You'll also notice, that unlike other modders, I very rarely bitch about Mojang's code, and tend to come down pretty hard on people when they do. This is precisely because I have such an extensive knowledge of real world programming, and thus also understand that *real* production code inevitably involves shortcuts and other sacrifices that facilitate *getting the fucking job done*.

Sure, there are a few parts of the way MC is coded I don't like regardless, like the extensive use of 'instanceof' checks (because they are a performance hog and really have very little use when programming in an object oriented language like java), and how conditionals tend to be abused in what should be tight inner loops (for example, did you know that most blocks rendered manually check for whether they are using a grass texture on every single face being rendered? That's just silly), BUT, regardless, it's exceedingly rare that I bitch about it for the same reasons I've outlined above, and because of my intimate understanding of real-world as opposed to academic coding practices. Being used to production code, I generally just accept it as the way things are, and move on from there.

As I've said in the past, my ego is not tied up in the code itself. I have enough experience that slams about my coding ability are usually just met with me saying "pfft...gain some real world experience and get back to me noob". People can rant about it non stop to high heaven and it doesn't bring me down in the least.

However, given that LexManos decided to focus many of his statements on the quality of my code, I thought it worthwhile to take some time to address that and expose it as being symptomatic of his general lack of experience, and also symptomatic of his out of control ego that can be seen in how he slams not only my code, but pretty much everyone else's code that he starts poking in without invitation. You see it time and time again on the Forge forums where he disses other coders for not coding 'properly' in their mods by his la-dee-da academic standards.

Anyways, I base the quality of code largely on what the end user experiences. Does anyone here who plays BTW seriously consider my code to be of poor quality? No? Then "pffft" to him :)

[Talrea]

from what i can tell your your wonderfully designed and bug free mod, i have no concerns over your skill as a programmer.

can i ask a odder question though.

If lex is not connected with the blatant rip of of your code, how does he know so much about it and complain about it so much. it sounds more like your codes been anoying him alot as hes tried to unravel it and make it forge freindly.

just a minor observation.

keep up the good work my freind, youve always had my respect and support, even though i chose not to get involved in the forum until this recent trouble.


edited a typo

[Peach774]

THEY CANCELLED BWF DUE TO RESPECT FOR YOU! THE FIGHT IS OVER! WE WON!

[Talrea]

THEY CANCELLED BWF DUE TO RESPECT FOR YOU! THE FIGHT IS OVER! WE WON!

don't be deceived, its not that simple, just putting up a cancelled sign doesn't mean its over.

threy still have the code and the person responsible hasn't stepped forward, this is just an attempt to hide until it blows over. its just anouther trick like using slow earlier.

[Peach774]

No he even has a log with flowerchild in it. lets wait for flowers notice about this.

[FlowerChild]

THEY CANCELLED BWF DUE TO RESPECT FOR YOU! THE FIGHT IS OVER! WE WON!

Seriously? All caps shouting out a statement that has already been disproved in recent posts and that even troll boards like Technic are acknowledging as not being the case?

Good bye.

[Sarudak]

Aw... You got him before I could... :P

[FlowerChild]

can i ask a odder question though.

If lex is not connected with the blatant rip of of your code, how does he know so much about it and complain about it so much. it sounds more like your codes been anoying him alot as hes tried to unravel it and make it forge freindly.

Well yeah. 7 hours of video with him blatantly revealing an intimate knowledge of both BTW's and BWF's code is the primary reason I've been pointing to him as the primary culprit here all along :)

If you scroll back through the thread, this has already been discussed at length, and is the main reason that any thinking individual responds to his repeated denials of involvement with "pffft".

Doubly ironic is that he's even stated that the reason he's pissed at me to begin with is because I called him a liar over a separate issue a few months ago (the reasons and timing behind the creation of FML which I viewed as a blatant act of disrespect towards Risugami). Yeah...he's done a stellar job of vindicating himself there :)

EDIT: Actually, you can find the thread where all that went down here:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4573&hilit=FML

[Stormweaver]

In regards to the code-quality issue - can he really complain about your code when MCF seems to be littered lately with people either claiming forge crashes, or reduces their FPS? On the last, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for them without optifine compatibility.

[Talrea]

ive been keeping an eye on things since the start, i just couldn't force myself to watch 7 hours of well him.

thats kinda why i worked out how to sign up, here and in mcf so i can help and suport your cause.

i never use forums, well i posted a two things on neoscavenger. (i suport that designer too).

[FlowerChild]

In regards to the code-quality issue - can he really complain about your code when MCF seems to be littered lately with people either claiming forge crashes, or reduces their FPS? On the last, I can't imagine how much worse it would be for them without optifine compatibility.

Code is what he knows (or thinks he knows), so he of course chooses to try and attack me there.

Couple of problems with that though: First, most listeners of that stream probably didn't understand a word he was saying about it, because they're not programmers. At most, he just encouraged the worst of them to say "hurr durr...FC's code sucks!", which does me no harm, and again, just makes the other side look silly when confronted with rational arguments.

Those that are programmers (like other modders) had it revealed to them quite clearly just how involved with the project he actually is. You'll notice that his denials are only really treated seriously by non-programmers.

Since like I said, other modders are really the people most important in this debate, as ultimately they will decide what needs to be done about Lex, I consider the above to have represented a BIG mistake.

[Talrea]

just read the talk between lex and fc from when modloader was stolen

back when he stole pretty much modloader, he insisted he wasn't strongarming people into using forge... sighs

you were right to step away from the forge issue and do your own thing.


also, their was talk of mincraft API in development back a year and a half ago... they definstly been dragging their heels on that

[Ethinolicbob]

Just wanted to address the copy/paste thing

I am quite surprised you feel the need to explain yourself.
Anyone with an iota of coding knowledge can see that your code is concise, direct and well structured. You almost never have any bugs, those that crop up are usually eliminated on the next release, and any serious ones are sorted within hours, sometimes minutes.
And what, your code is not what Lex wants? Boo freaken hoo.

am not coding in a team environment. My code within BTW is written for my own use, and only for my own use.

I am going to have to call you here. As far as I have experienced you are very accommodating from an addon point of view. You leave plenty of hooks and even have a thread designated to hook requests.

Honestly man, don't sweat the small stuff. What you have with BTW is a huge freaken achievement and well earned.

[Nexus Trimean]

Just wanted to let you know FC that You are Clearly in the right here and we as a community support you. Even those of us who spend almost all out time lurking.

[FlowerChild]

I am going to have to call you here. As far as I have experienced you are very accommodating from an addon point of view. You leave plenty of hooks and even have a thread designated to hook requests.

Oh sure, but that's a relatively recent trend. Like I've been working on the code for a year and a half now, over many different versions of MC (so of course, some of my old code doesn't take advantage of some of MC's newer code under the philosophy of "if it ain't broke...don't fix it"), whereas I've been adding hooks for what now? A couple of months?

So, if I'm talking about the overall code structure, it has *mostly* been written for myself and only myself, and now that I've made the addition of add-on hooks a priority, I've been slowly refactoring some of my code to accommodate that.

Are there portions of my own code I despise? Absolutely, just like any other programmer.

Some of the biggest examples that stand out for me are the Block Dispenser, Hopper, and Pulleys and Platforms.

In the case of the BD and Hopper, those were relatively early blocks in the mod that were coded to do one thing and have incrementally grown *a lot* as the months have ticked by. So yup, I openly acknowledge that the code for them is a frigging mess that I generally just try to avoid, but which I have on my todo list to revisit so I can provide related hooks to add-on authors.

In the case of Pulleys and Platforms, I've always hated that code and dealing with it (hence why there are still some bugs open related to the 1.3 port ;) ), but that's largely due to their nature. MC simply was not architected to deal with that kind of functionality, so, the code is rather hacky by its very nature, and quite the pain in the ass to work with as a result. If I was working on MC itself, I'd approach it a very different way and change how the underlying code behaves to accommodate something like that, but given I'm a modder, I cut my losses and do the best that I can given the circumstances. If you want another example of what a pain in the ass such code is, you can take a look at all the trials and tribulations Eloraam went through (and is still going through) with her frames, only magnified from what I've experienced due to them being more versatile and general purpose (and you'll note how much I've resisted adding additional functionality to Pulleys and Platforms as a result of that ;) ).

And again man, I am pointing none of this out because I feel the need to defend my code. You've been around the forums long enough to know that I never really do like to discuss this kind of thing, or feel the need to. However, I am pointing this out because it once again clearly highlights Lex's motives and culpability in all this.

Even just looking at his attitudes towards modders on his own forums, you really have to question if he's even vaguely aware that his "clients" are largely amateur programmers with potentially very little experience that are modding MC for fun, yet he often rants at them about the "proper" way to code as if that's even vaguely relevant to what they're doing and enjoying.

It just strikes me as supremely ironic that the supporters of such an individual would then point to my ego as justification for all this when they've got this mini-Mussolini raging at the head of their community.

"Remove the log from thine own eye..." and all that.

Honestly man, don't sweat the small stuff. What you have with BTW is a huge freaken achievement and well earned.

And thank you :)

I generally don't try to sweat the small stuff, but given that it seems to be an element of the ongoing debate, I thought it appropriate to address it.

[Talrea]

may i ask a very very off topic question: doesn't have to give anything away its just a thought/ observation of mine

with your new project RTH will you be able to get past alot of the restriction encoded into minecraft and allow you a far greater freedom of block behavour and ideas?

edited: moved to off topic, feel free to delete this.

[FlowerChild]

may i ask a very very off topic question: doesn't have to give anything away its just a thought/ observation of mine

It is extremely off-topic, so please take it to another thread if it's something you want to discuss.

[TheGroovyWorkshed]

My uninvited contribution:

I've lurked here for a very long time but I decided to register just to reassure you that you have a lot more support than certain people's egos may have them believe. I have little more to add except my whole-hearted backing; I hope it is of value to you. Keep fighting the good fight and hopefully the fickle nature of the mob that bangs on these gates will allow them to be swayed by sane reasoning and perhaps they will remember that common decency shouldn't be thrown aside simply because of the anonymity the internet affords. A pipe dream? Almost certainly but then again Lex definitely has enough rope to hang himself and the cutthroat and/or weasely nature of some of his cohort may help tie the noose.

To not end on a sour note; utmost respect to you and your work, FC.

[FlowerChild]

My uninvited contribution:

I've lurked here for a very long time but I decided to register just to reassure you that you have a lot more support than certain people's egos may have them believe. I have little more to add except my whole-hearted backing; I hope it is of value to you. Keep fighting the good fight and hopefully the fickle nature of the mob that bangs on these gates will allow them to be swayed by sane reasoning and perhaps they will remember that common decency shouldn't be thrown aside simply because of the anonymity the internet affords. A pipe dream? Almost certainly but then again Lex definitely has enough rope to hang himself and the cutthroat and/or weasely nature of some of his cohort may help tie the noose.

To not end on a sour note; utmost respect to you and your work, FC.

I do believe that was one of the most well worded first posts I've seen in a long time. Thanks man :)

[dawnraider]

My uninvited contribution:

I've lurked here for a very long time but I decided to register just to reassure you that you have a lot more support than certain people's egos may have them believe. I have little more to add except my whole-hearted backing; I hope it is of value to you. Keep fighting the good fight and hopefully the fickle nature of the mob that bangs on these gates will allow them to be swayed by sane reasoning and perhaps they will remember that common decency shouldn't be thrown aside simply because of the anonymity the internet affords. A pipe dream? Almost certainly but then again Lex definitely has enough rope to hang himself and the cutthroat and/or weasely nature of some of his cohort may help tie the noose.

To not end on a sour note; utmost respect to you and your work, FC.

Wow. I couldn't have said it better myself. I completely agree with that. Also, welcome to the forums!

[BlackCat]

I'd just like to offer a final word on my thoughts regarding this issue. I'm very grateful as per the handling of Gil's involvement, you did the right thing, and I thank you for that.

That's all I have to say here, keep up the good work FC, I support you in all that you do.

[someonetobe]

The BWF site (the PM convo and logs posted) seems to be providing a lot of confusion. It has confused some people here, it will most certainly confuse people on MCF.

I know the information there is not accurate. I now that the individual you were speaking with was somehow mislead. I don't know about what. The information, if available, isn't in this particular thread (just that it was revealed in IRC).

Anyway, with things not over -- that BWF site will convince a ton of people it *is* over. If we could expose that this information is not true in an extremely clear, plain way, I think that would really help. But I don't feel like I have the tools to do so.

If this is an ignorant post, because I haven't kept up on other threads, please delete.



Thank-you,
Philip