What is BWF?

[Whovian]

Like for something like TC3, it would make perfect sense. I tend to cringe when I see the posts of people talking about using TC3 in combination with BC/RP or what have you, and the number of people that just don't "get it" in terms of it being a mod intended to be played alone. I'm sure that doesn't make the author particularly happy either to know all his hard work put into a creative vision is being played in a totally different context from what he had envisioned.

I've always viewed BC as an "automation" mod, so it should work well with most mods, TC3 included (in my opinion.) Now, TC3 w/ IC2 or RP2. That would lead to an odd play experience, but you have a point there.

EDIT: Just felt like bringing this up. A while ago, I thought about a Forge recoding of BTW (EBXL compatibility, for instance,) but immediately realized it would be a really bad idea to release it publicly. Now, if only the people in charge of BWF had any idea of what the phrase "consequences to a community" meant.

[Graphite]

Oh, I'm quite certain it'd be a no, but if slowpoke wants a concrete yes/no answer, then why not? I certainly don't see the harm in making it absolutely, unrefutably clear what FC's stance on that particular point is. Guesswork by various people and misinformation has been plagueing this discussion for days now, and it certainly didn't help matters along.

[ProjectMayhem]

There's a guy on the BTW thread on MCF that claims he knows the facts about BWF. I wonder if it's true, might clear up some of that guesswork.

[Marasambala]

Well, I don't usually get pissed off or angry about many things. High tolerance for pain, I suppose. But this has really gotten under my skin, too.

It's not just FC and BTW that has been affected by forge recently. There are a couple of great mods that were developed relatively recently without Forge before getting assimilated.
Mystcraft was first, it's a great fantastic concept and was off to a incredible start. No conflicting base classes, BTW compatible. Within days of that critical mass of people noticing it, the MCF thread was absolutely inundated with Forge compatibility requests. At first there was a lot of constructive discussion about developing the mod itself. It started to go wrong when it was made into two separate builds, one Forge one not. The best of both, I suppose. At that point, all discussion became all about including Forge-compatible ores and XTra biome generation. All development of unique planned features stopped as he struggled and struggled to work in the ore/biome generation into the Forge build, and the mod as a whole suffered because of it. Once that was accmomplished the non-forge build was no longer supported. The masses win. [edit: he just announced today that he's getting back to it, afterall, in spite of
Forge]
Back to BTW only for me.

Then I recently discovered another great mod, Biomes 'O Plenty. He left the Xtra biomes team beacuse he was tired of dealing with the Forge demands and just wanted creative freedom. He quickly developed 50+ biomes, all with vanilla blocks, all of them fantastically designed. It was incredible. Alas, the masses soon discovered it and began demanding Forge compatibilty. He left Forge to do this on his own and the demands began almost immediately. He declared multiple times he had no interest in the overhead of dealing with the Forge API, he only wanted to focus on his creative terrain generation. All too soon, he has recently thrown his hands up and said it isn't fun anymore. He's making it open source and turning it back over to the Xtra biomes team.

One more short story: Through all this MCF drama, I took a look at the sticked MCF thread keeping the current list of Mods. Amazingly it is kept current. Scroll down, yep BTW is there, awesome. Then I noticed... Forge mods? green highlight. Non-Forge? yep, highlighted in red. Give me a fucking break.

At least BOD is still intact.

As has been said many times already ... FC keep doing what you do, speak the radical truth, and build this awesome game that's oozing out of your pores faster than you can type.

FC, doesn't ever seem to catch a break.

edit: added a token word of profanity.
edit2: I shall add two more alcoves to my crypt, one for Mystcraft and one for Biomes 'O plenty.

[mc_dunedin]

Slowpoke: "FC, would you make BTW compatible with forge?"
FC: "No fucking way"

Slowpoke(or some other modder): "FC, may we build our own forge compatible version of BTW?"
FC: "Fuck off. BTW is intended standalone"

Slowpoke: "Okay, you said no, we went ahead and did it anyway. Now. Do you mind if we publish it? Pretty Please?"
Where the fuck is the sense in dignifying that with an answer?

[Azradun]

Azradun - first, hi (:

Secondly - Graphite is not asking that to support slowpoke, and is a member of the community - he understands the issue, he's just trying (I think) to sort out the issue regarding slowpoke and FTB. He's simply acting as a middle man here, so don't shoot the messenger (:

EDIT: Of course, your points stand entirely, but it *felt* (whether you meant it like that or not) like it was directed towards Graphite :P

Hi too :) Fancy seeing you here! :)
(of course I know you're a BTW fan...)

My apologies to Graphite if I mistanderstood his intentions. I just think, as Mc_dunedin splendidly stated, this "question" from Slowpoke is imho ridiculous and completely out of time. First they went along with BFW, to the point that LexManos, with his position in Forge, openly advocated it and helped popularize it. Only then, after FC fumed (I've seen the logs, to be completely honest, the fuming itself was a bit excessive, but frankly deserved) they bothered to ask, meanwhile denying their involvement on the one hand, and threatening that he can't stop it on the other. Can't he read copyrights? Does Slowpoke lack moral compass? I can say it's wrong. A lot of people can say it's wrong.

There is also something Slowpoke seems to be missing here. When taking possession of somebody's things, you can't assume "yes". Otherwise I could take his wallet without asking, which wouldn't be nice, would it? FC is under no compulsion to give any answers - if he doesn't, it automatically says "no" based on his stated copyright on MC forums.

[Elevatator]

There's a guy on the BTW thread on MCF that claims he knows the facts about BWF. I wonder if it's true, might clear up some of that guesswork.

That's Gilberreke. He used to be moderator in this forum (In Off-Topic there is even his "IRC CHAT RULES" thread sticked)
At some point he even was responsible for BTB. And then... he left, was banned or whatever.

[azagal73]

Then I recently discovered another great mod, Biomes 'O Plenty. He left the Xtra biomes team beacuse he was tired of dealing with the Forge demands and just wanted creative freedom. He quickly developed 50+ biomes, all with vanilla blocks, all of them fantastically designed. It was incredible. Alas, the masses soon discovered it and began demanding Forge compatibilty. He left Forge to do this on his own and the demands began almost immediately. He declared multiple times he had no interest in the overhead of dealing with the Forge API, he only wanted to focus on his creative terrain generation. All too soon, he has recently thrown his hands up and said it isn't fun anymore. He's making it open source and turning it back over to the Xtra biomes team.

I've just been looking at Biomes 'O Plenty and he's picking up it's development again. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/149 ... ry19742695

[Stormweaver]

That looks rather nice. I've missed terrain gen mods tbh - there are only so many variations in post 1.8 terrain these days, and so many biome colours. But a BTW base would fit right in with those haunted forests...

Just got to pray Mojang do a good job with the API. Terrain gen hooks are something that should have been done months ago.

[Marasambala]

I've just been looking at Biomes 'O Plenty and he's picking up it's development again. http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/149 ... ry19742695

...and just today, too. *happy dance*
Aw crap, that means I have to start over, again... so worth it.
ok, ok, Done with off topic.

My original comments surrounding this still stand.

[Benanov]

I'm going to make a call here.

I've passed two messages to FC from slowpoke, and when I'm not around, slowpoke gets someone else to pass the message. The SAME message. I'm done passing messages for slowpoke. If he asks, the answer is NO. That goes for the rest of you. FC has made his statement.

I noted that FC & slowpoke are talking past each other. I don't think it's deliberate - I know people I just can't see eye-to-eye with.

[Marasambala]

Holy Shit!

Just now over at MCF

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/253 ... ry19744934

This is somewhat important for FC to read, so here's hoping he does.

I am involved with BWF, I can tell you how the thing was set up and who FlowerAdult is, if you are willing to do it in private. You can of course then make a public statement about it, but I'd rather not involve my own name in the discussion further than this post. Seeing your current discussion with Slowpoke, I think it's better if I tell you, instead of forcing people to give up names that have nothing to do with the project, aside from PR.

I'd appreciate it if no one else replies to this post until I get a chance to talk to FC.

edit: made my initial reaction more honest

[Ulfengaard]

No
-Batto

[BinoAl]

Well, assuming this is a legitimate offer, I think it's great. From the little bit I've talked to Gil after his banning, he still had a lot of respect for FC and BTW. While getting involved with BWF wasn't too considerate a move, at least he is trying to help us

[Marasambala]

Well, assuming this is a legitimate offer, I think it's great. From the little bit I've talked to Gil after his banning, he still had a lot of respect for FC and BTW. While getting involved with BWF wasn't too considerate a move, at least he is trying to help us

Agreed,
This may be the key to unlocking the mystery that is the Si.....whatever the hell is going on. Hopefully this is an opportunity for FC to find some sort of resolution.

[MaxAstro]

I don't want to drag down the Biomes O' Plenty thread down into the FC-hate that's going on in the MCF right now, but I made a simple post there in support of the author. Thanks to Marasambala for drawing my attention to this mod, it was really cool to see another mod that seems to be echoing FC's stance on Forge.

Sadly no compatibility with BTW - there's enough Block IDs for both and no base class conflicts, but not enough terrain sprite indices for both.

'Course even checking to see if they were compatible felt a bit apocryphal given ... well, everything. :p

Anyway, I hope this guy who claims to be a turncoat isn't just full of it - the faster this can get some sort of resolution, the better.

P.S.: Giving the timing, I wonder if the outpouring of support for FC is why the author of Biomes O' Plenty decided to start development again? If so, that's awesome - it's one of the first signs that we are having a true and lasting effect on the community.

[FlowerChild]

Oh, I'm quite certain it'd be a no, but if slowpoke wants a concrete yes/no answer, then why not? I certainly don't see the harm in making it absolutely, unrefutably clear what FC's stance on that particular point is. Guesswork by various people and misinformation has been plagueing this discussion for days now, and it certainly didn't help matters along.

Graphite, I think what he's more interested in hearing is a clear and sanitized statement that doesn't involve LexManos so he can quote it for reference without further sullying the reputation of the Forge.

It's nonsense. I've made my stance clear repeatedly, and again, he can reference the copyright notice in the OP.

Also, I have obviously NOT given anyone permission to do this, so his request for a formal statement on this smacks of someone saying that any form of silence represents consent in cases like this, in direct contrast to their public image with FTB with regards to asking author permission for inclusion.

What has been done with BWF, particularly with the head of the Forge, LexManos, throwing in his public support for it, and being obviously implicated in its development from his own statements, is simply wrong.

I'm not going to entertain the political maneuvering of SlowPoke in attempting to distance FTB from this. He can either stand up himself, recognize this is wrong, and state that publicly, or he can continue to dick around asking questions to be relayed to me that no sane individual should have to ask at this point...except if they're a politician.

Don't allow his smoke screens to further confuse or dilute the issue.

[brab]

I've read this whole thread, and the MCF thread as well. I don't have much to give, except for my support. I'm a very casual Minecraft player. On good weeks, I manage to play for a couple hours. And BTW really gave me the incentive to get back into this game. It taught me about automation. It taught me about mob traps. And recently, with hardcore spawn on, it taught me about starting over in a world I had already shaped. This DF-like aspect may be the one I like the most: building is building, and dying costs a bunch, but not in the building itself. One just need to find where it was!

Thank you FC for all your work. You're doing great.

[finite8]

What is pissing me off is that a Forge compatible mod is more an "Add-on" or "Plug-in" than anything else. Demanding that BTW be forge compatible is like demanding "I like apples, but your tree doesn't fit in with all the grape vines. Make your apples grow on vines". Sure, you might be able to do some grafting and get it to kind-of work, but you will spend more time piss-farting around for some half-baked solution than just doing it the way it works best. Forge and BTW cannot be compatible. The only way i think it would be possible is if Mojang overhauled their engine, and effectively made the Vanilla MC content an add-on that can be disabled or overriden by external content (I am working on a little game / project that follows this philosophy. It is very tricky to design).

We accept this fact that you probably cannot combine mods in other games and you cannot expect it to work or be possible, so why is that concept so unreasonable with Minecraft?

[rrusciguy]

What is pissing me off is that a Forge compatible mod is more an "Add-on" or "Plug-in" than anything else. Demanding that BTW be forge compatible is like demanding "I like apples, but your tree doesn't fit in with all the grape vines. Make your apples grow on vines". Sure, you might be able to do some grafting and get it to kind-of work, but you will spend more time piss-farting around for some half-baked solution than just doing it the way it works best. Forge and BTW cannot be compatible. The only way i think it would be possible is if Mojang overhauled their engine, and effectively made the Vanilla MC content an add-on that can be disabled or overriden by external content (I am working on a little game / project that follows this philosophy. It is very tricky to design).

We accept this fact that you probably cannot combine mods in other games and you cannot expect it to work or be possible, so why is that concept so unreasonable with Minecraft?

I believe a large factor is the age (or apparent age, according to maturity levels) of those playing minecraft. We seem to have a lot of little brats clamoring for every thing they look at and say "ooohhh shiney" about to be made to work together. They seem incapable of rational thought (unless its rationalizing their efforts to get what they want) and act off of an "I want! gimme!" instinct

[FlowerChild]

All right guys, there have already been several interesting developments in this ongoing struggle today, I will refrain from going into details at present as it has entered a bit of a delicate stage.

I will say this however:

We are winning. We are being heard. People central to this whole morally bankrupt scenario have heard us and the opposition is becoming unraveled from the inside as a result by conscientious and intelligent individuals that do not at all like what is being done.

I urge you to keep pushing and keep hammering on LexManos's central role in this whole debacle. There is no doubt that he is a key figure in it, and that his desire to silence me being one of the few voices of opposition of the Forge, and his own personal vendetta against me are largely the motivating forces behind what has occurred over the past week. His repeated and transparent denials of involvement in this whole thing are becoming increasingly unhinged.

It is becoming increasingly evident that this is exactly what I've been calling it all along: a clear abuse of power from the leader of the Forge to squash any opposition to his "rule".

So keep on fighting the good fight guys, and again, my MASSIVE thanks to all of you for lending your support in all this. It really does warm my heart to know that there *are* mature and morally responsible people within this community that are willing to step up when someone so obviously goes too far.

[finite8]

It really does warm my heart to know that there *are* mature and morally responsible people within this community that are willing to step up when someone so obviously goes too far.

We love you man. You're mature, clever enough (even if you copy paste code sometimes ;) ), strong willed, respected and ALSO being wronged. Even my wife who thinks that all of this minecraft stuff is stupid, agrees that blatantly ripping someones hard work, even if you did it for free, is above all morally wrong.

[XantyZon]

If I was not a BTW fan and I liked the forge mods I would still find what they are doing with BwF utterly reprehensible. I'm not sure what good I could do at this late hour if I do finally make a account on the MC forums, but it is good to hear things are breaking down on their side.

[Gormador]

Oh my, missing all the fun again...

I may not have express my support to you regarding that matter FC, but be assured you have it fully and with no restrictions whatsoever.
LexManos needs to either grow a pair of balls or a non-childish brain, depending of his level of involvement in this (even though I'm quite sure he would need those anyway...).


I'm quite pleased with your last post to say the least.
Quick question : when you say " People central to this whole morally bankrupt scenario have heard us and the opposition is becoming unraveled from the inside as a result by conscientious and intelligent individuals that do not at all like what is being done."
Do you mean that people gravitating around the forge community (ie players / mods / some MCF admins & moderators) are standing against Lex's actions ?

[FlowerChild]

I just want to post here something from a PM I just wrote, that I think is also very relevant to some recent discussion in this thread. It's slightly modified from its original so as not to reveal who it is I am conversing with:

For someone that has been a party to this whole debacle, that's seemingly expressing some regret over the course that it has taken, to now ask me for a clear statement indicating I do not wish it to be released, after I have clearly stated the grievous harm it has done to me and my mod's development loudly and repeatedly, is insulting at a very fundamental level.

It's the equivalent to someone beating the crap out of you as you scream bloody murder and then asking "can you make a clear statement telling me that you want me to stop?"

Would you dignify that with a response? Would you not just be more offended by the very question being asked? Would you not view it as simply a further attempt to add insult to injury by forcing you to pretend that there's been some kind of element of free will in it for you since the beginning, and provide the instigator with the justification of "well, at least I stopped when he asked me to".

Seriously man...it's just not cool and really doesn't move this towards any kind of resolution. I'd rather continue being kicked while screaming bloody murder than dignify that with a response and thereby add any level of tacit approval to what has happened here.

----

Anyways, just wanted to pass that along as it explains why I am so reluctant to provide any "clear statements" that may be requested with regards to this.