What is BWF?

BinoAl · Post by **BinoAl** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:45 pm

walker_boh_65 wrote:Thats a simple one to clear up quite quickly.

Hey FC, does BWF go against your wishes as the mod author of Better than Wolves?

Nah man, I'm pretty sure he loves BWF, and forge! :)

slango20 · Post by **slango20** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:47 pm

meh, BWF has some simple blocks, nowhere near done yet, and it will be obsolete when the official api comes out, and I have supported this mod before even hellfire existed

slango20 · Post by **slango20** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:50 pm

BinoAl wrote:
walker_boh_65 wrote:Thats a simple one to clear up quite quickly.

Hey FC, does BWF go against your wishes as the mod author of Better than Wolves?
Nah man, I'm pretty sure he loves BWF, and forge! :)

he helped make forge, but he then split from it for reasons that I don't understand, I think it was elo though
I still support forge, but also BTW being a separate mod, things would just be OP if it were forge compatable
EDIT: Gah, why do these forums not have post merging? (AKA: sorry for the double post)

Post by **FlowerChild** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:05 pm

walker_boh_65 wrote:Thats a simple one to clear up quite quickly.

Hey FC, does BWF go against your wishes as the mod author of Better than Wolves?

Hehe...yeah, it would take a politician to need an answer to that one after the past few days :)

Really, the funny part of this is the concept that I would go after someone so cowardly as to hide behind an alias to an alias instead of *the head of the frigging Forge* who is acting as the public face of and promoting it. That makes as much sense as someone blaming some poor schmuck in the trenches for starting a war.

And BTW Slow, since I know you're reading this: if you're going to try to distance yourself from this and issue a public statement that you don't support it, there's one little tid-bit that is going to be required to convince me of your sincerity and that you aren't just doing this as yet another political maneuver:

The identity of FlowerAdult.

If you do not actually support his actions, then I do not think you would feel any need to protect him any longer. If you feel you can't give that up, then I think it's a clear indication of where you actually stand on the topic.

jorgebonafe · Post by **jorgebonafe** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:08 pm

God... I just finished reading the MCF thread... Just reading most of the posts gave me a headache.... How can people be so stupid and obtuse? Its like they have this fixed idea that they keep trying to convince themselves of, and the arguments they use are just sad, when they are even related to the topic at all..... They don't seem to take the time to read and think of that they write.... And they keep making the same stupid arguments over and over and over.... "FC is sexist... FC is a dick... Forge is not doing anything wrong... Just ignore it....LexManos didn't do anything...Why U no like sugestions?...You had it comming...Taste of your own medicine... bla bla blablalba...." Ghahhhh!!!.... It makes me exhausted.... FC, you are pretty resilient.... If it was me, I would have said "fuck this, I'm outta here" a long time ago and retreated back into my nice shell...

slango20 · Post by **slango20** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:17 pm

jorgebonafe wrote:God... I just finished reading the MCF thread... Just reading most of the posts gave me a headache.... How can people be so stupid and obtuse? Its like they have this fixed idea that they keep trying to convince themselves of, and the arguments they use are just sad, when they are even related to the topic at all..... They don't seem to take the time to read and think of that they write.... And they keep making the same stupid arguments over and over and over.... "FC is sexist... FC is a dick... Forge is not doing anything wrong... Just ignore it....LexManos didn't do anything...Why U no like sugestions?...You had it comming...Taste of your own medicine... bla bla blablalba...." Ghahhhh!!!.... It makes me exhausted.... FC, you are pretty resilient.... If it was me, I would have said "fuck this, I'm outta here" a long time ago and retreated back into my nice shell...

same here with me, MCF is primarily run by kids who think they are better than everyone else, and thus think their say is the final say

BinoAl · Post by **BinoAl** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:37 pm

slango20 wrote: he helped make forge, but he then split from it for reasons that I don't understand, I think it was elo though
I still support forge, but also BTW being a separate mod, things would just be OP if it were forge compatable
EDIT: Gah, why do these forums not have post merging? (AKA: sorry for the double post)

Heh, I'm quite aware of the history, I was just being sarcastic ;)

Post by **FlowerChild** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:40 pm

jorgebonafe wrote:FC, you are pretty resilient.... If it was me, I would have said "fuck this, I'm outta here" a long time ago and retreated back into my nice shell...

Hehe...ok man, I don't disagree. It's totally fucking draining at best, hence why I absolutely needed a few hours off last night after going at this for days straight (since Tuesday I think).

Thing is, put yourself in the position of having to do so to defend that which you most love about life, and which people are trying to take from you. Because again...that's what I'm doing here, and it's amazing how much resilience you can find in yourself when that's the case.

In my case, it's not just the mod. It's having FINALLY after all these fucking years, pretty much a lifetime of making games, created an environment for myself in which I can make games with complete creative control. All I can do is fight for it.

finite8 · Post by **finite8** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:17 am

FlowerChild wrote: Thing is, put yourself in the position of having to do so to defend that which you most love about life, and which people are trying to take from you. Because again...that's what I'm doing here, and it's amazing how much resilience you can find in yourself when that's the case.

It also helps to know that you have the support and affection of a large group of people. Standing and fighting on your own is one thing, but having a big group of people standing next to you saying "Damn right!" helps remove any doubt that you are fighting for something you deserve. Don't forget that mate. I just hope you aren't alone in this. The Internet is all full of faceless people. I know you de-humanize yourself on the internet and i totally respect that. I really hope you have support others that aren't exclusively though the internet.

It's sad that all this shit is happening, but if i have to pick sides... go FC!

Post by **FlowerChild** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:17 am

finite8 wrote: It also helps to know that you have the support and affection of a large group of people.

Absolutely man. As I've mentioned several times throughout this, seeing the support I've been getting means the world to me.

darahalian · Post by **darahalian** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:27 am

I've been following this issue, and I agree that it is just sad. I haven't said anything before since I'm kind of a lurker and everything I have had to say has already been said, but I just wanted to let you know that I support you in this as well. I've already put one of the banners in my MCF sig (although I'm hardly active there), and while I don't know if I want to get involved in the discussion (if you can call it that) on MCF, I still agree that a modder should have total authority over what happens with his mod, and is not obligated in any way to do things a certain way just because everyone else is. You are providing your amazing work for free, and instead of being grateful, everyone is whining that they can't toss it in the blender with all their other free mods, and even faulting you for making it this way, when the mod is meant to be played on its own. They think they're entitled to be able to enjoy things just how they want to, no matter what, and forget that they're getting it all for free, through no work of their own. Not only this, but they are so intent on exercising this perceived right that they seem perfectly willing to go so far as to kill the goose that's laying the golden eggs if that's what it takes to let them put the golden eggs in the same carton as their other eggs. The whole thing is just disheartening.

Benanov · Post by **Benanov** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:38 am

(01:23:21 AM) Benanov: so what do I need to pass to FC?
(01:23:30 AM) slowpoke__: all i need is for FC to send me a message saying please do not distribute either my mod or any mod that you deem to be a direct copy of BTW and that will cover it
(01:23:49 AM) slowpoke__: not just for BWF but also any other mod that may come along in a similar vein
...
(01:33:03 AM) Benanov: Do you know who this floweradult person is, slowpoke?
...
(01:34:42 AM) slowpoke__: The only thing I will say on that subject is, this fight is none of my business. I am staying out of it and I will not take sides other than to publically condemn the release of this mod. It is certainly not my place to release any personal information against a persons will.
(01:35:47 AM) slowpoke__: I can tell you I know that FlowerAdult has been told what my stance is and has no argument with me from what I can tell.

Per Slowpoke he tried to reg here to talk things out and was banned. If that's the case, I can ban him from the IRC.

Last message I pass.

Post by **FlowerChild** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:41 am

Heck, I'm not asking for any personal information. I believe he misunderstood. What I am interested in knowing is the alias that resides one level of abstraction (and cowardice) underneath the current alias being used.

Not sure why he's comfortable protecting that information for someone whose actions he's saying he now wants to condemn.

Beyond that, you can refer him to my Copyright notice in the BTW MCF OP.

Equitis1024 · Post by **Equitis1024** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:36 am

FlowerChild wrote:What I am interested in knowing is the alias that resides one level of abstraction (and cowardice) underneath the current alias being used.

Hah, that is such a good point. How pathetic is it that this person has to hide behind TWO levels of anonymity in order to do what they're doing? That alone should indicate how scummy this whole thing is. I can't believe there are so many people in the Minecraft modding community who refuse to recognize that ripping off someone's work like this is intolerable. They really are a bunch of spoiled children.

It was bad enough that they are constantly demanding new toys from Santa. Now they want someone to copy and redistribute his toys so that even the naughty children get to play. And then they don't understand why Santa gets pissed...

Col13geBoy · Post by **Col13geBoy** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:49 am

I got to the end of this topic and I finally, finished waded through the utter bull of the second "BWF" thread and I'm shocked at the fact that everyone(BWF/Forge bandwagoners) ignored the fact that he, at a basic level wants nothing to do with forge. Its not an "I don't want to be compatible with anyone" but an "I don't want to use forge." and people have failed to see the difference. FC has stated numerous times what he wanted, given hundreds of reasons, but because people have been rubbed the wrong way because he kept it real (for lack of a better way of putting it) they feel it's ok to take what he's done, the utter genius that he has put into code and go against the ONE thing he made clear that he absolutely didn't want to happen. The thing that's giving me this ridiculous headache caused by attack of stupid is that they are trying to ignore the moral question of "is this right?" to a logical and legal one where FC has clearly stated that's not the problem. All in all You guys fought the good fight and I can say I am 100% behind FlowerChild and all that he does.

P.S: I've been lurking for a couple of weeks now and I signed up because I had a feeling something like this would happen. Thank you FlowerChild for your great mod.

Spoiler

Show

I almost forgot about the fact that the "me want philosophy" basically justifies everything. Since, everyone wished for it, those wishes that previously and usually are ignored[cough tekkit/technic cough] were allowed just because they don't like him. THIS IS MADNESS. No, THIS IS MCF

dr_spindizzy · Post by **dr_spindizzy** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:52 am

I've just made myself late for work reading the various threads and it's pretty depressing stuff. FWIW FC you have my admiration for the calm way you're taking this, and my absolute support on the underlying principle, and my sympathy for the stress this must be causing you. I'm not a game designer, but I am a coder, and I would be absolutely furious if this was done to me (in fact, I went through something not completely different a while back and it was horrific...)

I have one concrete suggestion: there will be people who don't know the reasons why you're upset, and who are reading unhelpful misinformation (see, for example, the MCF threads, which aren't quite at YouTube level yet but which are getting close). It's true that the information is out there (for example, I know you have that video interview with Battosay about Forge), but I think it would be really helpful if people could see a nice, eloquent précis at the top of the BTW MCF original post explaining, say, the issues of balance, game design and respect for creator's wishes etc etc which inform your desire to have BTW standalone. And why specifically you're against BWF and modpacks.

Of course for lots of people this won't make a difference at all, but it will:
- help put across your (very reasonable) point to people who care to read (and there might be more than you think)
- give your supporters a clear source to link to (saving them time, and ensuring the message is coherent)
- unequivocally answer Benanov et al.

SpaceGuyR · Post by **SpaceGuyR** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:12 am

That's a good idea. It'd get them to stop using the link to the thread to appear better and everything.

Azdoine · Post by **Azdoine** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:49 am

Col13geBoy wrote: I almost forgot about the fact that the "me want philosophy" basically justifies everything. Since, everyone wished for it, those wishes that previously and usually are ignored[cough tekkit/technic cough] were allowed just because they don't like him. THIS IS MADNESS. No, THIS IS MCF.

No, it's not really a valid defense for anything, but that's what people tend to use it for. It's an important distinction.

The customer is not always right. Stupid fucking entitlement.

Col13geBoy · Post by **Col13geBoy** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:43 am

Azdoine wrote: The customer is not always right. Stupid fucking entitlement.

Its because of that why people can't see past all the bull and recognize the fact that FlowerChild wants nothing to do with Forge. He decided to boycott Forge. Forge then decided that they were going to force him onto the bandwagon anyway.Why people don't see the wrong in that is beyond me.

Azradun · Post by **Azradun** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:59 am

Why does LexManos publicly review something that's not moral or ok to even exist in the first place? Hell, it's sort of like the late Steve Jobs advertising pirate copies of Windows on TV. And then denying all involvement :) This, and Slowpoke's comments on IRC ("you can't stop it") stink all the way to heaven. I've worked in a corporation for 4 years - such behaviour as LexManos' would get even a CEO fired in an instant.

I'm 100% behind you on this, Flower Child.

Jay42 · Post by **Jay42** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:14 am

I don't think I can add much that hasn't been said yet, but I'd like to add my full support and respect for you, FC. I don't think I have ever personally witnessed something as disgusting and despicable as this whole mess, even on the internet. I cannot state enough clearly how much I have come to admire your vision, and even more, the will to pull it through. I wish the best to you, although I cannot see how this can be finished in a satisfactory way, since the creators are literally just 'spoiling for a fight', while the masses have no morale whatsoever.

dr_spindizzy wrote:I have one concrete suggestion: [...]

I fully agree there. Well, in that context, maybe I can bring up one comparison that hasn't been made yet: Milgram's Experiment. As long as there is only one vocal side, uninvolved people will still press the button. Discussion and information can only do good, for what we need is a voice of reason that opposes the system.

Ick, now I feel all down. Meh, better get playing again~

EvanT · Post by **EvanT** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:23 am

What I find rather hard to get is: how could they expect this to work in the first place?

I mean even if they would have had a fully working 100% feature copy of BTW how did they expect this to put FC out of business?
Per design a copy will be not up to date and not as awesome as the original. FC has a huge fan base why should any of those switch over to the pirated version? It is not like their version is cheaper to get it just lacks features, originality and creativity.
The only people who I imagine to be attracted to such an abomination are the "Make HC-X optional!" and "I want to run a nuclear plant next to my millstone!"-people. One could argue that getting rid of those is even a blessing.

While this kind of move may work in a situation where money is essential. Some big company coping the features of a independent developer and advertise the product to death so none will even look for the original. But here, where BTW is well established and FC does it for fun not for monetary gain, the strategy will just not work.

I do not see how they plan on forcing FC into forge with this kind of behaviour neither can I see how this would stop FC from doing what he wants with his mod. It's like saying that a certain form of state is bad and trying to silence the opposition by recreating the "bad thing" within the own system.

Graphite · Post by **Graphite** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:34 am

After some discussion with Slowpoke, I'll just leave this question here. Any chance you could see yourself giving a straight out "yes" or "no" answer? It doesn't have to be based in legality or morality. Personal opinion is just fine. It might seem obvious after the past few days, but if a direct, simple answer can be helpful in this situation, then I personally see no reason not to answer it.

Should slowpoke not distribute either your mod or any mod that you deem to be a direct copy of BTW?

Azradun · Post by **Azradun** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:08 am

Graphite wrote:After some discussion with Slowpoke, I'll just leave this question here. Any chance you could see yourself giving a straight out "yes" or "no" answer? It doesn't have to be based in legality or morality. Personal opinion is just fine. It might seem obvious after the past few days, but if a direct, simple answer can be helpful in this situation, then I personally see no reason not to answer it.

Should slowpoke not distribute either your mod or any mod that you deem to be a direct copy of BTW?

I am quite astonished you ask such things. Imagine asking Bill Gates this question:

"It doesn't have to be based in legality or morality, but I'd like to ask you, should I pirate my copy of Windows 8?"

You're basically asking a modder who put copyright statements and lot of work in his mod if someone can blatantly rip him off. He didn't release it as open source. That means, you can't just reverse engineer his code (and I know from LexManos' texts that he knows his code) and make your own work *based* on someone's original concepts. It's blatant copying and immitation. Sure, it may be even legal (I've seen voices on Forge forums that this content isn't protected legally, and they even could name it Better Than Wolves), but comes out extremely sleazy. "We'll take your successful mod and copy it". Well, what courage! To completely copy something that was proven to be a hit, and not risk anything by developing *original content* yourself.

Learn to respect basic coding principles.

Eriottosan · Post by **Eriottosan** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:21 am

Azradun - first, hi (:

Secondly - Graphite is not asking that to support slowpoke, and is a member of the community - he understands the issue, he's just trying (I think) to sort out the issue regarding slowpoke and FTB. He's simply acting as a middle man here, so don't shoot the messenger (:

EDIT: Of course, your points stand entirely, but it *felt* (whether you meant it like that or not) like it was directed towards Graphite :P

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