What is BWF?

[someonetobe]

I support you, FC.

The rest of this post is optional.

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I'm not saying this to try to disarm your anger; you have every right to feel angry (or anything else you may feel). I just want to say this because it can be easy to forget when you've been wronged.

Most People are not involved in this in any way and have no desire to harm you.
Most minecrafters are not involved in this in any way, or even know it has happened, and have no desire to wrong you.
Even most MCF goers, I'm willing to bet, seriously bet, want nothing to do with this.
Basically, I just want to remind you that most of us out here in the world, either do not know who you are, or consider you our internet buddy.

The people fucking with you are a small group of people. I am NOT saying it does not matter. That is NOT my point AT ALL. It's just that it can seem like freaking everyone is spitting in your face, and I don't want you to think that.

You're loved by lots of people, and your content is loved and enjoyed, which is an expression of who you are. Please do try to remember that while you go through this.

Sincerely,
Philip

Edit to add spoiler 2! Because I must always edit every post at least three times...

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Hell, even the people spitting in your face still, as you have noted, profess admiration of your work. Even if they're idiots. I don't think I've seen one person ever seriously say that your mod is poor quality -- never. That is ridiculously high praise. If I was so good at my job that people who internet-hated me still complimented my work? I would put on a superman costume and freaking leap buildings, dude.

[Magnavode]

As I've stated in the thread, this is a matter of me defending my self-respect and not allowing myself to be steamrollered by what is effectively a mob that have no respect for me or all the work I have put into providing free content to the community. It is also me defending my very desire to continue providing content to a community that would treat me this way.

I genuinely want to know where the community as a whole stands on this, and what they're willing to do about it, as I am really not certain if I want to continue to spend my time, work, and energy, providing toys to children that would then treat me in this way in return.

Shivers go down my spine at the thought that the kids over at MCF get to decide the fate of BTW.

[FlowerChild]

Shivers go down my spine at the thought that the kids over at MCF get to decide the fate of BTW.

They don't. There are plenty of intelligent people in the community, and their voices, while perhaps fewer in number, are ultimately far far louder if they believe in what I am saying and opposing here, than any volume of kids.

Remember too that modders themselves are the most important people in all this given that Forge is dependent upon their good will for its continued support and perhaps even existence. I think it safe to say that modders are also amongst some of the more intelligent members of the community, and if they believe that the head of the API they are using is actively working against the rights of modders, and is on some kind of egotistical power trip to crush any modder that has the gall not to use his code, they may indeed have something very poignant to say/do about it.

Even if it is not likely, is also not entirely inconceivable that word of this may make its way back to Mojang, and if they are sympathetic to what is being done to me, I doubt they'd want to work with anyone that would stoop this low.

[azagal73]

There are plenty of intelligent people in the community, and their voices, while perhaps fewer in number, are ultimately far far louder if they believe in what I am saying and opposing here, than any volume of kids.

I'm glad some of the intelligent ones are stopping by and showing their support.

Remember too that modders themselves are the most important people in all this given that Forge is dependent upon their good will for its continued support and perhaps even existence. I think it safe to say that modders are also amongst some of the more intelligent members of the community, and if they believe that the head of the API they are using is actively working against the rights of modders, and is on some kind of egotistical power trip to crush any modder that has the gall not to use his code, they may indeed have something very poignant to say/do about it.

While we don't know how many of them are following the thread, I was hoping for at least one of them to have posted by now.

[FlowerChild]

While we don't know how many of them are following the thread, I was hoping for at least one of them to have posted by now.

I think they need to be very cautious in how they handle this, and thus are unlikely to post to a thread like that until they've had a chance to think it all through and decide on a course of action.

Their current silence makes them no less central to this debate, and I'm sure many of them are watching it quite closely as they have an intimate understanding of the work involved in creating a mod and how much it would hurt to have it stolen out from under you.

And honestly, I think Forge authors would probably be the most sympathetic of all here, given that they've been having something similar done to them by Technic for the past year and that the FTB pack was largely created in protest of that.

[Ceunon]

Damn, how much time has FC wasted reading those MCF threads? Think about the things he could've added to BTW, were he working on the mod, instead.

I unfortunately can't do anything else at present. I've tried to work on the mod several times over the past few days only to inevitably become distracted by this all over again as this issue is far too important and offensive to me to be able to focus on creating content while it is eating at me.

I *wasn't* trying to imply that you should be working on the mod. If my post made it look like I was, I sorry. Knowing how much trouble situations like this can create, I couldn't possibly suggest that you turned your back to it.

The best I can do is fight as hard as I can until this is either resolved, or I have exhausted my desire to do so and can thus focus on other things once again.

Doing the right thing > turning your back to the problem. Simple as that. I support you, FC.

[someonetobe]

Since that thread has my first posts in MCF in it, I'm just waiting to get banned for trolling or something.

[Ulfengaard]

The debate is starting to go in circles, though.

[someonetobe]

Rocking it Network style

[FlowerChild]

The debate is starting to go in circles, though.

Yeah...they inevitably all do. Again though: it helps get the word out and just serves to make the opposition look sillier and sillier despite their best efforts.

Statements like "morals don't matter", "you should just keep your mouth shut when you are wronged", and all the rest of the garbage they're spouting repeatedly is readily apparent to more intelligent readers.

So, once again: even the trolls have their purpose here ;)

[walker_boh_65]

even the trolls have their purpose here ;)

I cannot say I have ever heard of another time when this was even remotely true. :)

[FlowerChild]

Ok guys...I really need to step away from the computer and have a little me time to get my head back on straight and enjoy life for a few hours.

If you guys can keep on fighting the good fight, especially over on that MCF thread, in my absence, that would be pure awesome. I've been at this for several days straight now, and I really just need to back off a bit and remind myself that life isn't all shitsicles ;)

EDIT: And link in case anyone needs it:

http://www.minecraftforum.net/topic/160 ... ith-forge/

[someonetobe]

Since I just joined MCF to post there, I'm at a limited post count. Gunna save the last couple so I can say something tomorrow before 2am. Peace everyone.

[Mason11987]

Regarding your recent comment FC regarding they having rewrote BTW someone just posted:

Sectional Moderator for the MCF, ZeroLevels, has attested to to testing out and looking through BWF. It is not a copy. It is a wraper. It requires you to download the BTW mod from FC's page and stick it into the config folder for BWF. It works by relaying information between BTW and Forge.

So the sectional mod said it is a wrapper and is actually dependent on BTW code. Don't know if you missed that.

[Mrchaim]

Well, good luck with everything Flowerchild. This is one hell of a shitty situation to be in, and you have my full sympathies given i'm an artist myself. (Hell, you'd have a banner from me too, but my tablet is borked, so no such luck...unless i get clever with some other things. In fact: any requests for a riff on the No means no banners? I'll see what i can do)

Something i'm curious about as result of this whole discussion - as i understand it, my read on the situation is if they were building a riff on BtW, and doing it withojut the hositliy towards you, you'd be fine with things? Instead of the current attempt to bully you out of the cumminty while taking your work wholesale. (apologies if this is a dumb question or the ilk - i'm not good at people, and ind asking questsions tends to be the best way to learn)

[8bitBob]

Ugh, I'm sorry, Flowerchild. I was trying to read the entire MCF thread before responding but after a hundred and fifty posts it has completely worn me down. I literally started drinking half way through. The amount of argument sidestepping is simply mind blowing. The frequency in which the BWF supporters completely ignore well reasoned arguments while attacking points they feel they have the upper hand on is simply depressing.

What's worse is I don't think it's an entirely conscious decision on their part. They simply blindly follow the well trodden path of their own arguments in a circle, blankly observing their own feet instead of looking up to see any new points of discussion, entirely secure that they're on the right side and not even considering something resembling critical thought of their own arguments.

Sorry if that got flowery. Again, I've been drinking.

I guess what I'm saying is I've always respected you for being able to put up with the masses; any man who will push against ignorance is deserving of admiration. But this really made clear what you've had to deal with /constantly/, and I couldn't take a fraction of it before wanting to give up. And I didn't even have anything personal on the line.

You're a better man than me, and I'll definitely be donating you a great pack of beer (or an alright bottle of whiskey, if your tastes are closer to mine) later for it.

[Ulfengaard]

Tired. *passes torch* Need a shower after all this, too.

[rrusciguy]

I'm amazed... they all start off with the basis "we want it, you didnt give, so they good", then throw on "FC is big meanie, he deserves it". The immaturity of these people...wow

[Wgurgh]

I fail to see how anybody could actually believe that BTF is acceptable. Actually, I think most of those arguing there are trying to convince themselves. I couldn't mod my way out of a paper bag, but I do write some. I know I would go totally crazy if somebody posted something I wrote to a site I didn't want it to be posted. Probably these people would too, they just have never created anything so they don't know how that feels...

I guess the mod hasn't totally taken away my soul, because right now I sure have a huge soul-ache. I don't even want to live in the same world as these people.

[FlowerChild]

So the sectional mod said it is a wrapper and is actually dependent on BTW code. Don't know if you missed that.

That's total bullshit of course, and he posted it to the Technic forums further indicating his bias.

Anyways, I'm not wading back in there tonight. Still need a few more hours to myself for the sake of my sanity ;)

[rrusciguy]

So the sectional mod said it is a wrapper and is actually dependent on BTW code. Don't know if you missed that.

That's total bullshit of course, and he posted it to the Technic forums further indicating his bias.

Anyways, I'm not wading back in there tonight. Still need a few more hours to myself for the sake of my sanity ;)

Help yourself to a few more beers while youre at it lol

[FlowerChild]

Before I depart again though guys, a very tired thank you from me...no way I could be doing this without support.

[Mudkipz]

Sorry if I got slightly off topic with the discussion of modder's distribution rights, but, given my background, I am much more comfortable talking about distribution methods and quality control issues than offering convincing arguments for moral issues. So I took the issue and ran with it.

[Graphite]

I'm sorry to say that not even this can motivate me to create an account on the minecraft forums, but I have posted about this in another place I do have an account and hopefully a suitable audience. I'm not going to provide a link as I'd rather keep a bit of distance between there and here, but here's what I posted atleast. Do with it as you may. I personally thought the part beneath "free advertising" came out quite well.

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I'm sure some of you know that I quite enjoy playing the mod Better than Wolves by Flowerchild. Just recently a video came out featuring the Better with Forge mod, a one-on-one copy of the Better than Wolves mod adapted to work with Forge, written by a person naming himself FlowerAdult.

I don't think I have to point out that the mod title and the author's name are obvious taunts in the direction of Flowerchild, not to mention the wholesale copying of his creative work. Obviously, a fuss was raised about it, a part of which can be found in a Better with Forge thread on the minecraft forums. I've been reading some of the remarks there and it's completely sickening to see the behaviour of some people there. This isn't even about the mods anymore, but about basic human decency...


I give you a synopsis of some of the attitudes in that thread:

Power to the players, man! I want to play a jumble of mods together and I want your mod to be part of it and there's nothing you can do to stop it! Respect my wishes to play this game as I want it!

Where does this sense of self-entitlement come from? Seriously. A person pours a year-and-a-half of hard work into something he allows you to play for free. What makes you think you have even the slightest right to do anything with it other than play it the way the creator intended? How about respecting the wishes of the modder instead.

Eh, I don't like Flowerchild, so I don't care that someone is doing this.

Well, by saying something like that, you make me not like you, so I guess it's okay if I give you a good firm kick in the balls, right?

But it's totally legal! The code was rewritten so there's no copyright involved.

Just because something's legal doesn't make it right.

He's just getting free advertising out of this!

Hardly. Better than Wolves is more than just a bunch of blocks. It's a set of constraints that allow you to get the most out of those blocks, giving you the most gameplay-bang-for-your-buck. Better with Forge takes the blocks, but removes most of those constraints by allowing it to be combined with things like buildcraft pipes, thereby ruining the whole concept of Better than Wolves.

Then, when people realize the only BtW things they have in the world are a windmill and a waterwheel to make their building prettier, they won't go: "well guh, I screwed myself over using pipes for transportation instead of waterflows". They'll go: "Eesh, better than wolves is crappy compared to these overpowered other mods I have installed." How's that free advertising?

But people can just play it without buildcraft and industrialcraft. I mean, I'd love to play it with just extrabiomes and extra mob mods!

You'd be one of the few. Let's face it. It will end up in a modpack and it will end up combined with buildcraft, IC2, etc. People who don't know better will download it and play all those mods as if they belonged together and they will come to the above conclusions.



Honestly, I'm starting to lose all faith in humanity here. How did the community come so far that modders get attacked for providing free content to the players; that they're treated like nothing more than code-monkeys who should bend over to fullfill their every demand.

[Thieme]

Gah MCF thread is locked just as i was going to write another reply. Which probably wouldn't have had much use, damn sheep :/