Dinnerbone in BTW MCF thread

[Stormweaver]

Wait, wait wait wait wait wait.

Since when is out MCF thread 'on topic'? This is what we use it for in the first place -.-

[MrLemon]

Ah, well, hopefully he and FC can talk via PMs and possibly be productive anyway. At least then the trolls are no longer an issue.

[EpicAaron]

His reply to the destruction of every redstone build ever:

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

I am really sickened and disapointed with Mojang.

[Husbag3]

This looks as though it may be a productive conversation... I look forward to reading it's resolution.
I would like to point out that Dinnerbone is acting a bit "excusey".

[SterlingRed]

Well that turned out to be a whole lotta nothing. How disappointing.

It would appear the only reason he showed up was to defend himself, not really discuss game design.
At least it sounds like he's open to a private conversation. Hopefully that will at least go somewhere. I can understand if FC doesn't even want to bother with that though. Dinner bones responses reek of inexperience in overall design and concepts, he only wanted to pick at specifics. Which is the signature of someone who doesnt understand the big picture.

[Stormweaver]

His reply to the destruction of every redstone build ever:

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

I am really sickened and disapointed with Mojang.

Potential*

The common sense implementation of 'analogue' redstone technically wouldn't change redstone as we know it at all. So, if they use common sense and don't cause any horrible bugs...yeah.

[ReaperT]

Wait, wait wait wait wait wait.

Since when is out MCF thread 'on topic'? This is what we use it for in the first place -.-

I've been trying to figure out why its off topic and the only thing that I can think is that he is using it as an excuse to take the discussion out of the public eye which is completely understandable. As was stated previously, he is representing Mojang by doing this.

[SterlingRed]

I suppose we should consider dinnerbones position as well. Anything that could possibly be interpreted as him agreeing with FC publicly would result in the MCF masses absolutely murdering him. And I don't think he has a spikey exoskeleton. So maybe not all hope is lost?

[Nexus Trimean]

Were i in dinnerbone's shoes my response would probably be as candid. The entire community watches each and every mojang post, that's why most large companies spend so much time with community managers, and why information is so slow in coming, no one wants to say anything that will "Rock the boat" per say, or get themselves or others into hot water. I Hope that something good comes out of this regardless.

[EvanT]

I do hope we will get to know the result of the potential PM-chat.

@Anvil becoming the "dead weight" While I understand the design aspect behind the choice I personally found removing all functionality from it and then calling it useless a bit hard and a very loud slap to the face.

@Redstone: well we do not know what they will change and what will be added in the final version. So I would not go so far as to calling it a disaster unless it is there to be reviewed. And it is kind of analogue already. So far I did understand that Mojang will add Output devices that will produce less that the full redstone level and a gate that can be adjusted to a minimum level. (This would offer a lot of new potential and if the existing Restone blocks will react to any level as before it will not break anything)

[Stormweaver]

This is one of those times where I'm going to go to sleep at a sensible time, wake up in the morning as things are winding down and really regret it, aren't I?

Ugh, one more cup of coffee for now. But if I wake up to a thread saying "Flowerchild Hired by Mojang" or similar....*shakes fist*

[Battlecat]

Other than an general non-specific overview of how the chat went, I hope that FC will keep discussion quiet. Publishing his PM chat with Dinnerbone (unless they agree that it become public later) wouldn't be any different than what happened to cause the disbanding of the turtles.

Still, I hope the private conversation goes well and is productive. Good on you for being so professional in your statements FC.

[Wafflewaffle]

I do hope we will get to know the result of the potential PM-chat.

@Anvil becoming the "dead weight" While I understand the design aspect behind the choice I personally found removing all functionality from it and then calling it useless a bit hard and a very loud slap to the face.

Deserved slap in face in my opinion. Playing designer is cool, but he gets payed to do that and not only he will get "harsh" criticisms, he needs them to be become a better professional

@Redstone: well we do not know what they will change and what will be added in the final version. So I would not go so far as to calling it a disaster unless it is there to be reviewed. And it is kind of analogue already. So far I did understand that Mojang will add Output devices that will produce less that the full redstone level and a gate that can be adjusted to a minimum level. (This would offer a lot of new potential and if the existing Restone blocks will react to any level as before it will not break anything)

They are already adding a new mineral to the Nether! Why not just implement this whole analog thing with that. Call bluestone and and leave my redstone system alone.

edit: defucked my quoting =P

[EpicAaron]

His reply to the destruction of every redstone build ever:

"I'm sorry you feel that way."

I am really sickened and disapointed with Mojang.

Potential*

The common sense implementation of 'analogue' redstone technically wouldn't change redstone as we know it at all. So, if they use common sense and don't cause any horrible bugs...yeah.

It is the fact that they don't care about previous builds and worlds that makes me angry. At this point, I don't trust Mojang with the ability to not mess this up. Although, it could potentially be very good.

[agentwiggles]

I found this disappointing. Legitimate concerns were raised in an entirely non-confrontational manner, with politeness and restraint that had to be difficult for someone as invested in all this as FC, and Dinnerbone beat around the bush and didn't address anything valid, spending time trying to turn around valid constructive criticism and skimming over issues like the planned changes to Redstone.

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of an analog system like the one proposed, and think it could theoretically be done without destroying the current redstone setup, but why they can't stick this functionality in a new system is beyond my understanding. It seems like the better option in every possible way.

[EvanT]

They are already adding a new mineral to the Nether! Why not just implement this whole analog thing with that. Call bluestone and and leave my redstone system alone.

They would have to recreate the existing mechanism within the new one. Then a converter would be needed to allow Redstone-Input blocks to react to the "blue" signal. That would just create a lot overhead compared to a few new input- and a gate-block. But this Redstone talk is off topic.

@Battlecat: That's why I said "result" not "chat log".

OK It is past midnight here and I have to get some work done in about 5h so I would agree with Stormweaver on the unfortunate timing while I find it highly unlikely that FC will turn his hobby into his job again.

So good night or morning or what ever it is you have right now.

[FlowerChild]

@Anvil becoming the "dead weight" While I understand the design aspect behind the choice I personally found removing all functionality from it and then calling it useless a bit hard and a very loud slap to the face.

It is useless, especially in relation to the mod's existing functionality through the Infernal Enchanter.

Beyond that though, only in terms of vanilla, is that the anvil was a band-aid solution to a fundamental problem with the design of enchanting as a system: that enchantments are randomly selected.

This was never fun. Nobody ever liked it. It just resulted in a lot of repetitive clicking trying to get the enchantment you wanted. So, instead of fixing the real problem there, perhaps coming up with an interesting system where individual enchantments had to be earned through gameplay instead of clicking (ahem), Mojang designed a poorly conceived block to resolve it through other means.

I realize the name is confrontational, and I intended it that way because the vanilla anvil is a terrible feature.

@Redstone: well we do not know what they will change and what will be added in the final version. So I would not go so far as to calling it a disaster unless it is there to be reviewed. And it is kind of analogue already. So far I did understand that Mojang will add Output devices that will produce less that the full redstone level and a gate that can be adjusted to a minimum level. (This would offer a lot of new potential and if the existing Restone blocks will react to any level as before it will not break anything)

Look man...I think I've called these things fairly accurately in the past and that Mojang has run out of good faith with these kinds of things.

"Let's wait and see" is reasonable the first time something happens, and I even used to sometimes say it myself. However, continuing to apply that philosophy when they continue to do the same thing over and over again is just sticking your head in the sand.

[BinoAl]

Disappointing how that seemed to fizzle out. I would've loved to see Dinnerbone take some of FC's points to heart, rather than brushing them off like he did

[FlowerChild]

I find it highly unlikely that FC will turn his hobby into his job again.

Honestly, I'd do it for MC. It's probably the one game in existence I'd do it for.

I have no illusions about potentially being offered such a position though. I've been highly and openly critical of Mojang's decisions, as well as being viewed as somewhat of a villain within the overall community, so I do not think such an offer would be politically feasible for Mojang, nor do I think they recognize that there's a problem that needs to be addressed here as long as Jeb is going on the record saying things along the lines of "the community loved bats".

[SterlingRed]

nor do I think they recognize that there's a problem that needs to be addressed here

I really think that's the root of it. I really believe that the current minecraft "designers" have no understanding that there is any problem at all and in the few cases they recognize a problem they don't understand the root cause, hence a bandaid fix like the dead weight. Its not that they're bad designers. Its that they aren't designers at all, and they live in continual denial that mc has any precedent for design that needs to be continued and built on.

[FlowerChild]

I really think that's the root of it. I really believe that the current minecraft "designers" have no understanding that there is any problem at all and in the few cases they recognize a problem they don't understand the root cause, hence a bandaid fix like the dead weight. Its not that they're bad designers. Its that they aren't designers at all, and they live in continual denial that mc has any precedent for design that needs to be continued and built on.

I think they're also constantly being fed support for their decisions through the positive feedback of the lowest common denominator within the community, that will always praise more power, and pure fluff like bats.

As long as they're getting an earful of that, I don't think they'll ever recognize that there's a problem here, and wind up tailoring MC to that portion of the community in violation of what made it great in the first place.

If anything though, I hope my exchange with Dinnerbone serves as a reminder that there are those of us within the community that don't see it that way at all. I hope that I clearly conveyed my feelings through my posts there, as I think that was a rather rare opportunity for the rest of us to have our opinions heard by Mojang and let them know it's not all fuzzy bunnies and snowflakes.

[nmarshall23]

It's good news that someone from Mojang is not just listening but taking part of the conversation. Even if his responses are a bit disappointing. Maybe in private he will open up. It's hard to talk frankly when you are in the spotlight. And FC said everything that I wish I could ask of Mojang. Very well said sir.

Also thank you FC, for holding his feet to the fire about the mod API.

I really believe that the current minecraft "designers" have no understanding that there is any problem at all..

Design, is a separate skill set from writing and programming. I'm not surprised that programmers didn't have any clue about design. I just hope that the light starts to come on.

[SterlingRed]

If anything though, I hope my exchange with Dinnerbone serves as a reminder that there are those of us within the community that don't see it that way at all. I hope that I clearly conveyed my feelings through my posts there, as I think that was a rather rare opportunity for the rest of us to have our opinions heard by Mojang and let them know it's not all fuzzy bunnies and snowflakes.

I hope you're right. My initial attraction to minecraft was through seeing someone build a scale model of the uss enterprise in minecraft. A game that could provide that much player creativity, and tools to do something so technically involved as laying out a scale model of that size was incredibly attractive. Then of course the initial tech tree alpha had was appealing as well because I saw so much more potential in what it could become. Alas, it hasn't gone anywhere. Without btw I'd be long gone. I wonder how many players that made the game as popular as it has become aren't around anymore for just that.

[CycloneSP]

Very interesting stuff going on here. I do rather enjoy reading posts concerning design decisions and whatnot.

I also seem to find myself comparing and contrasting FC, Mojang, and Riot Games in how each handles community pressure and criticism, and big design decisions, and over all vision for their game.

EDIT: Yeah, I kinda agree with nmarshall, it is definitely hard to be completely open and honest in front of a large audience for most ppl.

[FlowerChild]

I hope you're right. My initial attraction to minecraft was through seeing someone build a scale model of the uss enterprise in minecraft. A game that could provide that much player creativity, and tools to do something so technically involved as laying out a scale model of that size was incredibly attractive. Then of course the initial tech tree alpha had was appealing as well because I saw so much more potential in what it could become. Alas, it hasn't gone anywhere. Without btw I'd be long gone. I wonder how many players that made the game as popular as it has become aren't around anymore for just that.

Hehe...I saw that same video very early on, along with one for a complex redstone computer that convinced me there was way more to this game than met the eye, and that the creative potential within it was limitless.

There are very few games I'd sink this much work into man, especially largely for free. There are also few I'd get this worked up over. I do so because MC is fucking genius at a very fundamental level, and I have seen absolutely nothing like it in a lifetime devoted largely to games.

And that means that this is exactly where I want to be at this point in time: working on a game that I believe to be at the forefront of design, whether I'm getting paid for it or not.